What do you think of this check raise?

[stinkysam]

2nd hand final table. 10th place player busted out on first hand of final table. I am in 9th. 34,000 left, blinds are 2000/4000. Villan has approx $43,000 in stack and in 7th place.

I have decent reads on 4 of the 8 other players as I have been playing with them for the last 2hrs. Villan is not one of them.


Hero is UTG w/ 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
raises to 8000
Villan in CO calls
Button, SB, BB fold

Flop:3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero checks
Villan bets min. $4000
Hero raises all-in.

My thoughts were as follows: Bigger raise PF possible, continuation bet flop in lieu of a checkraise-however, that would basically commit me anyway. PF shove not a bad idea-possibly pick up blinds, or get lucky and double up through an overcard hand. I opted for the checkraise b/c I thought I would have a shot of pushing him off of a hand like A9, A10 since he still had $31k behind.

[illegit]

Why are we even playing postflop? Easy open-shove preflop.

Pretty sure no aces are folding on this flop. You might get pocket pairs bigger than yours to fold on this flop with a checkraise, but you're probably just as likely to get those same hands to fold by pushing the flop.

Push preflop > push flop > check push flop

[ad617]

It depends. I mean, what is Villain's calling range. As you know, the strength of this move depends on the FE.

On the face of it, I'm leery. But I play 10+1s and 20+2s, so I see much looser play, even deep into the tourney. Thus, my experience is kind of useless.

That said, you really have to have a clear idea of Villain's calling range. If you think you can make him lay down an Ace then go for it. I would never drop TP here though.

--AD

[dmk]

a) shove preflop
b) there's no way he's folding AT or A9...or any A at all

[NinjaMan]

[ QUOTE ]
a) shove preflop
b) there's no way he's folding AT or A9...or any A at all

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed 100%.

Why are you minraising anything, much less a hand that hates a flop? ESPECIALLY with your stack? This is an easy PF shove.

A2-A7 might fold, but they aren't calling PF, really, so any conceivable Ace is calling. If someone decided to smooth call with TT-KK, they might call too. This could have been a backwards where he called your bet, but you could shove postflop on any board.

Your c/r increases his pot odds for the hand, so it would be harder for TT-KK to fold.

All in all, shove PF.

As for postflop, it's tough to say because your minraise fogs things up.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we even playing postflop? Easy open-shove preflop.

Pretty sure no aces are folding on this flop. You might get pocket pairs bigger than yours to fold on this flop with a checkraise, but you're probably just as likely to get those same hands to fold by pushing the flop.

Push preflop > push flop > check push flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% here. You can't limp or just minraise 77 UTG this late w/ 8 blinds, this isn't the first level. Min raising is absolutly terrible, you're committing yourself (so you might as well push), and what flop are you confident on?

This is pretty much an instashove for me PF. With only 8 blinds and about to pay them, I don't think it's unreasonable to push here.

[dumbndumb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) shove preflop
b) there's no way he's folding AT or A9...or any A at all

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed 100%.

Why are you minraising anything, much less a hand that hates a flop? ESPECIALLY with your stack? This is an easy PF shove.

A2-A7 might fold, but they aren't calling PF, really, so any conceivable Ace is calling. If someone decided to smooth call with TT-KK, they might call too. This could have been a backwards where he called your bet, but you could shove postflop on any board.

Your c/r increases his pot odds for the hand, so it would be harder for TT-KK to fold.

All in all, shove PF.

As for postflop, it's tough to say because your minraise fogs things up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. If he called with an A, the whole point of him calling is get this flop. If he has an ace he isn't going anywhere. Seems to be good reason to push PF to force him to a decision whether to call with a weak A.

That being said, after he calls PF, now what? If you don't bet you may let him draw to to overcards if he has no A. Suspending the notion that a PF push may be best, what would other people do on this flop?

[NinjaMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) shove preflop
b) there's no way he's folding AT or A9...or any A at all

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed 100%.

Why are you minraising anything, much less a hand that hates a flop? ESPECIALLY with your stack? This is an easy PF shove.

A2-A7 might fold, but they aren't calling PF, really, so any conceivable Ace is calling. If someone decided to smooth call with TT-KK, they might call too. This could have been a backwards where he called your bet, but you could shove postflop on any board.

Your c/r increases his pot odds for the hand, so it would be harder for TT-KK to fold.

All in all, shove PF.

As for postflop, it's tough to say because your minraise fogs things up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. If he called with an A, the whole point of him calling is get this flop. If he has an ace he isn't going anywhere. Seems to be good reason to push PF to force him to a decision whether to call with a weak A.

That being said, after he calls PF, now what? If you don't bet you may let him draw to to overcards if he has no A. Suspending the notion that a PF push may be best, what would other people do on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You pretty much have to shove, even if you know villian has an ace.

If you fold, you have 22k left with 2k/4k blinds. Not a fun situation with the blinds hitting you the next 2 hands.

[dumbndumb]

Makes sense. Given that, I kind of like the check raise a little more now, given you have to put your chips in now anyway. Still prefer PF push.

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