5/10 live J9s

[reutel]

Players with an image:


UTG+1 seems a decent player, haven't seen him in action a lot, which usually is a sign of a good player. Hasn't showndown any junk.

Button: Button is grandpa. He his way too loose, but has some sense how the game should be played, he doesn't like to play this way though.

Utg +1 raises, three cold callers, I call in CO with J9 of spades, button calls and the blinds call. We see the flop 8 handed for 16 SB.

K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Utg bets, one call, I contemplate raising but I call, button calls. Turn is 4 handed for 10 BB's.

K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I raise, Button threebets, UTG caps and I fold?

[DeucesNeverLoses]

I call here and fold on riv UI. Looks like QJ/T9/K9/KK/TT to me, so you can improve vs. QJ/T9. There's like 20 BBs in there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] obv. c/c if u hit a str8.

[DrVanNostrin]

You're getting 9.5:1, how many outs do you think you have? I'd estimate you have less than 1 on average. If UTG is sane he's not 4 towning grandpa w/o a boat. And you're implied odds are negative because if you do improve you'll probably still lose. It sucks, but it seems like a pretty easy fold.

edit: to clarify, you changed UTG +1 to UTG, right?

[One Outer]

Yes, you fold. Only the last 9 is good.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I expect UTG+1 to have KK/TT and and grandpa button to have QJ/T9/K9/TT or possibly x9 here.

I ran it through pokerstove:

[ QUOTE ]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

7,182 games 0.031 secs 231,677 games/sec

Board: Kd Ts 9h 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 01.128% 01.13% 00.00% 81 0.00 { Js9s }
Hand 1: 98.441% 98.44% 00.00% 7070 0.00 { KK, TT }
Hand 2: 00.432% 00.43% 00.00% 31 0.00 { TT, A9s, K9s, QJs, Q9s, J9s, T9s, A9o, K9o, QJo, Q9o, J9o, T9o }


[/ QUOTE ]

If UGT+1 is overplay AA (which I don't think he is), then you improve to:

[ QUOTE ]

14,742 games 0.005 secs 2,948,400 games/sec

Board: Kd Ts 9h 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 10.541% 06.45% 04.09% 951 603.00 { Js9s }
Hand 1: 50.319% 50.32% 00.00% 7418 0.00 { KK+, TT }
Hand 2: 39.140% 35.05% 04.09% 5167 603.00 { TT, A9s, K9s, QJs, Q9s, J9s, T9s, A9o, K9o, QJo, Q9o, J9o, T9o }


[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I don't even like your turn raise. I think you gain more value from getting your opponent to come again on the river instead of knocking him out.

By the way, thinking ahead, if you just called on the turn and weren't raised behind you, if the river comes a jack, UTG+1 bet, you raised, and it was reraised back to you, it sounds like you'd be foolish to make it four bets at this table.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Utg +1 raises, three cold callers, I call in CO with J9 of spades

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh


[ QUOTE ]
K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I raise, Button threebets, UTG caps and I fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Double meh

[reutel]

Yes I changed UTG+1 to UTG. Crappy, but small mistake.

Chesspain:
what is the worst suited connector you call here? It seemed pretty standard for me. With two cold callers, I'd still call. With one I fold. The structure of the game is small blind = big blind btw.

To chesspain once more: Don't you like my turn raise, or my turn fold?

[mikeca]

I do not like calling a raise with J9s, especially when the raise comes from someone who seems like a decent player. You are too likely to be dominated.

On the turn, I like the raise. After grandpa 3 bets and the decent UTG caps, I suspect your hand is no good. If your reads on these players are solid, I’m ok with a fold here. Against an unknown, I might call this down.

On your question to Chesspain “What is the worst suited connector you call here?”

J9s is not a suited connector, it is a suited one gaper. One gapers are less valuable than connectors. With 3 cold callers in the pot, I would call with high suited connectors down to about JTs. I wouldn’t go much lower and I would be very careful even with that if the raiser was “decent”. With suited one gapers, I would never call with less than AQs. I throw away even KJs here, but I am kind of a nit.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not like calling a raise with J9s, especially when the raise comes from someone who seems like a decent player. You are too likely to be dominated.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the players behind you are very loose, especially the blinds, you're looking at a pot that is going to be at least six- or seven-way. J9s strikes me as a borderline hand. If you're good enough to find a fold when you flop top pair, it's probably playable. If you can't fold by the turn after flopping top pair when the betting tells you that are not in a good spot (and there's no obvious flush or straight out there), then you shouldn't play this hand.

mikeca, SSHE lists the sometimes playable (non-broadway) suited connectors on p71 as T9s-54s, J9s-64s, Q9s-96s, Q8s, and J7s (most are playable only in late position for one bet). Clearly Miller et. al. think that the term "suited connectors" refers to suited cards that can form a straight and can be sub-categorized by the size of the gap between the two cards. I would personally probably call J9s a "suited one-gap connector" if I were writing a poker article that I hoped to have published. It's silly to quibble over terminology too much, but reutel is clearly within the the boundaries of normal poker conversation.

Personally, my limits for the suited connectors I would play are based partly on how I feel and partly on the kinds of players I am up against. I've even been known to raise on rare occasions with a hand like 87s from the CO or button in a raised multi-way pot if I think the initial raiser is raising with a lot hands he wouldn't cap with and there are a lot of calling stations who have cold-called. I'd play a bit tighter if my lineup includes some smart LAGs who won't call me down and who can get away from top pair.

[reutel]

Lets reverse this. If you are on the button, with 6 limpers. What hands do you raise? I find myself raising JTs+ TT+ AKo. If I can raise with JTs, I can call here with J9s. I can get away from top pair.