200NL Live - KK OOP, value vs. pot control

[KurtSF]

Preflop: I have two black kings in the small blind, there are two limpers, I raise to $15, one fold and one call.

Villain is a LAG. He is apparently a regular. I have never seen him before, but he knew all the other regulars and he had a huge stack of about $500. Two or three other regs were telling him to go home before he losses it like he always does. He's not afraid to make big bets, but I haven't seen much of what he's doing it with as I haven't seen him show down. I have $280.

The pot is $32 and the flop comes 345 rainbow. I bet $20, villain calls.

This is just textbook at this point, right?

Turn comes another 3, putting two spades on the board. The pot is $72, I bet $40, and villain calls.

Honestly, villain could have anything here. I didn't want to give a free card, since I still think I'm ahead. If he's drawing I'm unlikely to get anything out of him on the river, so I need to get some money in here. Is this a good line?

The pot it $152, the river brings a ten of clubs.

What do you do and why?

I bet $60 and villain goes all in. I only have $145 left. Damn, the tough choice I didn't want to make. Can I call $145 into the $417 pot?

Regardless of whether this was a call or fold, would check calling the river have been better? I was thinking value all the way, but got myself into a pickle on the end.

Thanks in advance for all comments.

[threads13]

You could have raised to 20 preflop in a live game methinks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


I don't think that you should be folding this river. If that call is incorrect you messed up somewhere else. He has really wide range here, but if he is aggressive I wouldn't bet 1/3 of pot on the river and then fold to a raise getting almost 3:1.


If he is a lag why not just check to him on all streets and let him "bluff" you off of your hand?

He may have 6 outs if he has an A, but I would assume he isn't going to check the flop or the turn. If you do this I think you can be willing to go AI. Sometimes he may take a free card and suck out on you but you should make up with this by getting him to put in his stack with a bad hand a lot.

[BigBiceps]

I probably would have checked the turn for pot control this is a pretty bad board for you.

Online I fold to this river raise instantly. Players are much worse live and it makes the decision harder, as he could be betting AT or whatever on the river.

[seki]

[ QUOTE ]
Two or three other regs were telling him to go home before he losses it like he always does.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have obviously stumbled into a collusion ring.

Seems an easy call at 200 live to me. I'd actually bet the turn bigger, but I always think the live players I play are droolers.

[CalledDownLight]

Bet more on the river and call the shove. You have 2 pairs.

[DrClaw]

It seems like you played the hand fine until the river. You want to bet your hand to extract chips out of a potentially drawing LAG player on a low connected board.

You say two things that make the river lead seem inappropriate to me. 1) "I didn't want to give a free card, since I still think I'm ahead [on the turn]." and 2) "He's not afraid to make big bets".

If you think that you were ahead on the turn, and the river doesn't complete any draws, its time to check your big pair and let the LAG try to represent something so that you can pick off his bluff. Leading for $60 on the river doesn't even really give you information if this guy is capable of raising a block bet. You bet the $60, got raised and still don't know what to do. You don't even get a call from a busted draw when you block the river like this, making it even worse because you aren't getting value or information. (Unless he's really terrible and would somehow call off with specifically A6, but if that's the case you didn't bet enough)

As played, with your weak lead into the river, you have to call his raise getting 3:1 and hope he doesn't have 23s.

[Landlord79]

Why no reraise pf? You're OOP and against a LAG, I say "Raise it up!"

Bets on all streets look weak and you have one pair with an additional pair that you'll share with your opponent.

Call the shove, though I agree w/ Dr. Claw, you really didn't find out anything with your bet sizing.

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
Why no reraise pf? You're OOP and against a LAG, I say "Raise it up!"


[/ QUOTE ]

I did raise, to $15. As threads13 points out I probably should have made it $20, but frankly I hadn't seen KK in a month of live play and I wanted some action. I know, I know....

[ QUOTE ]
You have obviously stumbled into a collusion ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of regulars in this game, but I have not yet come across any blatant collusion or softplay. I included the comment mainly to justify the conclusion I took from this table talk: that while the villain is a regular, he is not a respected player (trust-fundie maybe, I don't have a clue).

I'm surprised to hear that so many people agree with calling the shove. I did call it, but having been raised on online play I thought that was probably a mistake made in the heat of battle.

Regarding the hand, it seems the consensus is that my betsizing is a little suspect and that I should have bet more throughout the hand. I like DrClaw's comment about the river bet getting neither information nor value. Frankly, valuebetting is a part of my game that has been deficient for a long time, and I'm trying to improve and make more thin value bets. That's where my thinking was, and not on letting the LAG hang himself. Fundamental Theorem of Poker, FTW.

Does anyone have any other thoughts on the turn and river play? I'll post a spoiler (since personally I like to hear resolution on discussed hands, even though its not the party line here) when discussion dies down.

Thanks all.

[twoblacknines]

I would check call on the river ...from your read of him seems like he would like an oppurtunity to bluff so why not let him, and if he has a hand that will call your value bet he probably would bet anyway.

As played I call river. You are ahead of his range although I wouldn't be surprised to see you beat this hand, but long term its a +ev call for sure...

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have checked the turn for pot control this is a pretty bad board for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

what?