100NL BVB JTs vs unknown

Mike MacIntosh · #1 07-23-2007, 05:34 PM

Villain is an unknown.

Are you betting the turn?

Are you 3barreling this board on the river?

Open-raising from the SB is giving me a bunch of head aches OOP, post flop when these guys call my cbet. Most of the time they fold to one of the two but there is always the exception.

What are your general thoughts on open raising from the sb? Considering we will be OOP w/ a marginal hand against an unknown when they call pre-flop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($113.10)
Button ($198.85)
Hero ($99)
BB ($376.50)
UTG ($80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $6, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($20) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $14, BB calls $14.

River: ($48) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ???

mertzo · #2 07-23-2007, 05:45 PM

i c/c turn, but as played i think 3 barrels are OK here.

Nick Royale · #3 07-23-2007, 05:49 PM

I usually keep betting the turn. I think I check/fold the river. There's not many draws he can have and I don't think he'll fold the pairs he called the turn with often enough. A third barrel isn't at all terrible though, but I would like to have a read.

wrschultz · #4 07-23-2007, 05:54 PM

You could c/r the river I guess if you kind of know your opponent, but you definitely should NOT fire here. You can shove if you want actually, but no other bet size.

I generally like to c/r the turn though. Everyone should try it sometimes!

Mike MacIntosh · #5 07-23-2007, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i c/c turn, but as played i think 3 barrels are OK here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you c/c a PSB on the turn?

Mike MacIntosh · #6 07-23-2007, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You could c/r the river I guess if you kind of know your opponent, but you definitely should NOT fire here. You can shove if you want actually, but no other bet size.

I generally like to c/r the turn though. Everyone should try it sometimes!

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds pretty sexy. Obviously a thinking villain will try to steal the pot with a wide range after we check it to him, and we should pickup the pot a nice % of the time with a c/r.

It also has great meta-game value because we are adding some weak drawing hands into our turn c/r range. Which will make it more difficult for thinking villains to play correctly against us in these spots.

What about the downside though. He calls our turn c/r, and we are left with an inflated pot on the river. Where we are going to show up with J high more often than not. What is your plan for the river? I would assume you are shoving many of them.

Nick Royale · #7 07-23-2007, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I generally like to c/r the turn though. Everyone should try it sometimes!

[/ QUOTE ]
I always try it when I tilt [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Nick Royale · #8 07-23-2007, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i c/c turn, but as played i think 3 barrels are OK here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you c/c a PSB on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with c/c on the turn is that we don't have the implied odds to call a decent bet oop. His range is wide and weak and he won't pay off enough on the river to call the turn getting 2.5:1 or something. Edit: maybe I'm under estimating the times hitting a J or T will be enough, riv going check, check. Anyways betting is certainly better imo.

RUDIKULOUS · #9 07-23-2007, 06:08 PM

I think c/f is probably best, but I kind of like where wrschultz is going with the shove.

Mike MacIntosh · #10 07-23-2007, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I generally like to c/r the turn though. Everyone should try it sometimes!

[/ QUOTE ]
I always try it when I tilt [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your thoughts on the turn c/r?

If you were to fire a third barrell here, how much would you make it.

What are some of the factors that determine if 3-barrelling is +EV against an unknown? Specifically what kind of board textures?