RAZZ....the Adventure

Praxising · #1 07-24-2007, 07:29 PM

This is a cry for help post.

I was a Hold 'em player - then, about a month ago, I started playing Razz at PStars. Then, worst thing happened - I tripled my bankroll in five days. Great rush....

I lost it in two.

Uh-oh.

But I'm hooked and would like to play seriously now. While waiting for ePassporte to release my deposit, I final-tabled a few freeroll Razz trny's and cashed in a few SnGs, so I think I do not completly suck and can become good at it.

I am starting at Full Tilt at the .25/.50 and need some (A LOT) of advice if anyone has the time. I notice FT players are considerably looser and at the same time more aggrressive than PS - but FT has many, many MORE Razz players.

So, my strategy has always ("always" being three weeks) been very tight but pretty aggressive when I get a hand. Here's the question: will that play profitably at this level, do you think? Or will antes and the inevitably losing A23s eat up all the profits? These people never seem to fold, it's like micro limit HE, the suck-out probability seems quite elevated...and the rake is pretty significant at micro-levels, seems to me.

I'm wondering if I should start at a higher limit, like .50/1 or even 1/2? Do I loosen up my game, go in with a 7 high instead of 6? Play some KA2s?

So, does anyone who plays micro at FT want to take pity on this fool and pass along any acquired wisdom? (I already read all the Razz posts in the stud section...) And the only thing I could find on Razz specifically was in Play POker Like the Pros - which was good but limited. Anyone writing more extensively on it?

Thanks, and, nice board

jbrennen · #2 07-24-2007, 08:17 PM

I've played Razz at Full Tilt at every stake from .25/.50 up to 8/16.

If you are a smart thinking player who has the bankroll for it, I'd recommend the $2/$4 game; it probably has the best rake structure ($1 is raked at $20, $40, and $60), and still has enough fish to make it not too tough to be profitable. Plus, you'll have less variance than you will at 0.25/0.50. Between the better rake structure and the lower variance, you're more likely to show a profit.

Get to know the players as well; usually, at a full table, I'll see 2-3 opponents who I know to be tough players (aggressive, overall tight but capable of stealing from any position, etc.). The others will show various degrees of fishiness... Pick on the fish. It's more satisfying to win a big pot from a tough opponent, but it's more profitable to pick on the fish. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

If you're coming from Stars to Full Tilt, realize that the antes on Full Tilt are much larger than they are on Stars, and the bring-in is much lower than on Stars. So on Full Tilt, you need to loosen up your starting requirements or get anted away, and there's much less incentive to defend your bring-in on Full Tilt. The payoff for a successful 3rd street steal is higher at Full Tilt (at a full table) while the bring-in's incentive to defend is lower, so you should be stealing more often than you would on Stars. So, yeah, basically the Full Tilt structure encourages a "looser" style of play.

jbrennen · #3 07-24-2007, 08:26 PM

I just realized I didn't answer your strategy questions directly.

Based on what you say, it sounds like you need to loosen up your starting requirements a bit. I recently checked my statistics (profit/loss) based on my door card and found that I'm substantially profitable when playing a 7 door card. If you play any three card 7 any time from any position for any number of bets on 3rd street, you have at worst a minor leak in your game... (At least when playing under the Full Tilt structure.)

As for playing hands like (K-A)-2, only play it as a steal. (Remember of course that a stealing hand can become a legitimate hand if your opponent bricks.)

2461Badugi · #4 07-24-2007, 08:36 PM

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If you play any three card 7 any time from any position for any number of bets on 3rd street, you have at worst a minor leak in your game... (At least when playing under the Full Tilt structure.)

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I would reduce this to playing them anytime you're not facing two bets or more cold. Which is still almost all the time.

Praxising · #5 07-24-2007, 11:16 PM

Thanks - great responses.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are a smart thinking player who has the bankroll for it, I'd recommend the $2/$4 game.... Plus, you'll have less variance than you will at 0.25/0.50. Between the better rake structure and the lower variance, you're more likely to show a profit.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like to think of myself as a "smart thinking player" but my think right now is not only would it stretch my bankroll, I just haven't got the Razz cash game experience for that limit. I imagine I will in a month or so, but I'm still making the HE transition. Tempting, though, I've been observing there and the lower variance thing is a real draw.

I always make player notes and I've actually been doing that for the last week at the micro levels.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're coming from Stars to Full Tilt, realize that the antes on Full Tilt are much larger than they are on Stars, and the bring-in is much lower than on Stars. So on Full Tilt, you need to loosen up your starting requirements or get anted away, and there's much less incentive to defend your bring-in on Full Tilt. The payoff for a successful 3rd street steal is higher at Full Tilt (at a full table) while the bring-in's incentive to defend is lower, so you should be stealing more often than you would on Stars. So, yeah, basically the Full Tilt structure encourages a "looser" style of play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for this, it confirms a feeling I had but hadn't exactly articulated. Not sure about stealing at the low levels but I can see it being a powerful tool with more serious players.
[ QUOTE ]
Based on what you say, it sounds like you need to loosen up your starting requirements a bit. I recently checked my statistics (profit/loss) based on my door card and found that I'm substantially profitable when playing a 7 door card. If you play any three card 7 any time from any position for any number of bets on 3rd street, you have at worst a minor leak in your game... (At least when playing under the Full Tilt structure.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this structure is really going to affect (effect?) the play, isn't it? I can't sit around like on Stars with the luxury to wait for the great hands and scoop a big pot from people who think it's all luck. I'll go broke. But you can't outplay people who can't play so I think opening up a little is going to be crucial and fast folds are going to be my friends. And more raising on good hands. On Stars, I tried to be careful, too easy to scare them away, but on Tilt, there are so many more players.

I dunno. I think I'm just gonna be feeling my way for a while - gotta go get the Stud version of Tracker now!

'Preciate the insights-

2461Badugi · #6 07-24-2007, 08:21 PM

Buy Sklansky on Poker. Read it. Play that way. Eventually you'll want to deviate a little bit, but as far as having a book that's prescriptive for winning at a poker game, SoP is as good as it gets.

Praxising · #7 07-24-2007, 11:26 PM

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Buy Sklansky on Poker. Read it. Play that way. Eventually you'll want to deviate a little bit, but as far as having a book that's prescriptive for winning at a poker game, SoP is as good as it gets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I have been [laying HE for a while and I'm a reader, so I have read Sklanky, most of his books, certainly SoP (which is s.o.p. , right?) Be a good idea to reread though as this is a big switch for me - I adapted everything for my own personality and weakness/strengths in HE - I have a feeling it's going to be a different deal in Razz, somewhat.

I've been observing these games for a while now, I saw a guy raise on 3rd with KKJ - no kidding, he wasn't the bring-in, and then take the pot with a Jack high after betting and raising all the way to the river like a madman against two players with very scary up cards.

It is definitely going to be an adventure.

Thanks for the comments - off to war....

SGspecial · #8 07-25-2007, 12:02 AM

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I've been observing these games for a while now, I saw a guy raise on 3rd with KKJ - no kidding, he wasn't the bring-in, and then take the pot with a Jack high after betting and raising all the way to the river like a madman against two players with very scary up cards.

It is definitely going to be an adventure.

Thanks for the comments - off to war....

[/ QUOTE ]

Hiya Prax, and welcome to the wonderful world of Razz. It sounds like you've already met 'Goofy', and all I can say is make a note and follow him around with a bucket to catch all the chips he spews. Of course, like in any game, you can lose hands to maniacs and drunks, but eventually you'll come out on top. If you're playing microlimit razz, you should check out the threads started by Carlos Chadha in this forum, since that'll give you a good idea of how to deal with the competition down there.

As for Sklansky on Poker, it does have the most complete and extensive razz strategy currently in print. There are a lot of good points, but also some erroneous ones and it typically presumes tight aggressive opponents, which you won't find a lot of in .25/.50 as you've seen. Fortunately, you don't actually have to play like an expert to beat the games you're talking about [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

p.s. make sure you read the rules of the game on the FTP site. Too many beginners get confused about some of the details, and FTP does a couple things differently than Stars.

Wetdog · #9 07-25-2007, 01:29 AM

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p.s. make sure you read the rules of the game on the FTP site. Too many beginners get confused about some of the details, and FTP does a couple things differently than Stars.

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Really? Like what?

I guess I could go read them. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Edit: OK, I read this and didn't see anything different.

SGspecial · #10 07-25-2007, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
p.s. make sure you read the rules of the game on the FTP site. Too many beginners get confused about some of the details, and FTP does a couple things differently than Stars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Like what?

I guess I could go read them. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Edit: OK, I read this and didn't see anything different.

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Try reading this for a better explaination. I'll give you a hint as to one of the differences between the two sites: it's in the rules for showdown. The biggest differences aren't mentioned so I guess you just have to play to find out [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Oh, and also one of the hand rankings is wrong on the Pokerstars page. See if you can find which it is...