NLTRN $5 River push or Value bet?

[Firegoat777]

Hi,

Same read as before. Player called me down with middle pair and Ace kicker previously to stack me up, but is capable of trapping. Would you push here on the river or should you play for value?


Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t2030
BB: t970

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero calls t10 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t30)</font>, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets t40</font>, BB calls t40 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t80)</font>.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t120, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets t120</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t240</font>, BB calls t120 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t480)</font>.

Results:
Final pot: t600

cheers,

[Insane_Steve]

Raise preflop.

As played, make it at least 300-330 on the river. Against certain opponents (ones that would stack off with any ace or jack) I might overbet shove.

[HokieGreg]

This hand is ugly.

Raise preflop to 60.
Bet 2/3-3/4 pot on flop. You are letting Jx/97/910/10Q/KQ/710 get there for free and you are going to have no idea where you are at.

You really have to raise this preflop though. You should be raising a lot worse hands than this preflop as well.

[hra146]

as played I bet more on the river.

However, please raise pf, bet the flop, bet the turn and shove the river. [or shove turn, too lazy to figure out with stack sizes]

I pretty much never slowplay dry A-hi boards. Passive opponents holding A2o here WILL NOT FOLD. But they arent gonna bet either. If he has an ace here the match is over, take that opportunity.

[bbbushu]

hra,

how do we decide to shove the turn or river given the effective stack?

[hra146]

[ QUOTE ]
hra,

how do we decide to shove the turn or river given the effective stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

well,

pfraise 60, call (p120, 900 behind)

bet flop 80, call (p380, 820 behind)

bet turn 260, call (p900, 560 behind)

shove river 560 into p900


works perfectly, obv. do not shove turn, I underestimated how small the pot would be (bcause were only at t10/t20)

[bbbushu]

i know how to add the pot and figure out how big the effective stack is - my question is how much should we usually *want* to leave behind for a shove on a later street as opposed to shoving (and possibly slightly overbetting) the immediate street?

560 into 900 seems reasonable to me, but i'm trying to figure out the science of it.

thanks
bbbushu

[hra146]

I see, Ive never really thought about it in terms of math/chipstacks. It depends on your opponents tendencies, his range comp. to boardstructure (if hes drawing), your own holding (its strenght) etc.

When you hold the immortal nuts on a dry board there is no reason to shove at all. Unless you know that your opponent is more likely to call a shove than luring bets. At the lower levels however you will be more successful drawing them into the pot with moderate bets on all streets.

When you shove the turn you do it because

- you dont want to give correct odds
- you want to commit yourself
- you want FE with draws/combo draws/halfmade hands
- you know he is gonna call with hope for holdings but might fold the river if he doesnt get there / you fire again.

thats all I can think about for now. As long as you have a reason for doing something you will be playing better than 75% of the opposition at OPs stakes.

[PureDiesel]

basic - sticky