bogus HU MTT structure

[willie24]

this has probably been talked about already- but I couldn't find it with any search.

What's the deal with HU MTTs online?

I've only played them on Stars and AP, and I was amazed by the way both sites handled "byes."

Here's how it works: if the amount of entrants is not a 2^x number (2,4,8,16,32,64 etc), then the "remainder" players "play-in" to the tournament. or another way to look at it - some players have byes.

fine- that works.

here's the problem. 1st round everyone starts with 1500. the winners get 3000 and go on to round 2...the byes (who got a free pass past round 1) also start with 3000 in round 2. obviously, they should start with 1500 also in order to make the tourney "fair." round 2 should sometimes be a guy with 3000 (winner) vs a guy with 1500 (bye).

it baffles me that they do it the way they do. I'm not going to go into any math on this because i think it's pretty obvious why their way is so inferior. any thoughs?

[Ontario_Tory]

Um - no.

A HU match is, by definition, an equal match between two people until one person has all the chips. HU tourneys cannot start with one person having a chip advantage.

A HU tourney is just a collection of HU matches. Like a shootout.

In theory the matches could have the exact same chip counts for each level - say 1500 chips to start each match. The starting stacks do not need to increase, and they definitely should not be uneven between players to start.

A Freezout implies that everybody starts with the same amount of chips and eventually one person has them all.

[willie24]

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Um - no.

A HU match is, by definition, an equal match between two people until one person has all the chips. HU tourneys cannot start with one person having a chip advantage.

A HU tourney is just a collection of HU matches. Like a shootout.

In theory the matches could have the exact same chip counts for each level - say 1500 chips to start each match. The starting stacks do not need to increase, and they definitely should not be uneven between players to start.

A Freezout implies that everybody starts with the same amount of chips and eventually one person has them all.

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this is fine when everyone has to win the same number of matches to win...but how can you justify making someone "play-in" under this system? he will have exactly 1/2 the starting EV as the players who recieve byes (assuming all else equal).

when everyone starts with 1500 (in whatever round they start) and play HU matches in a bracketted format, accumulating opponents' chips as they go until there is one winner, byes and play-ins have the same starting EV. (assuming all else is equal).

for what possible reason is the "start each match with same sized stack" rule important when there are byes involved? i don't get your point.

[willie24]

another reasonable way to do this, which would work with your "every match has to start with equal stacks" rule, would be to treat the "playins" as satellites, where each player pays 1/2 price, and winner gets into the tournament. That makes sense. Having the playins pay the same buyin price as the byes, and start with half the chips is ridiculous.

[FortunaMaximus]

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for what possible reason is the "start each match with same sized stack" rule important when there are byes involved? i don't get your point.

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Guy wins first match, has 3k chips. Bye starts match with this player with 1.5k chips. How is this equally EV for the bye? He didn't determine the table/round draw.

That said, double-elimination HU matches sound like fun.

[willie24]

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Guy wins first match, has 3k chips. Bye starts match with this player with 1.5k chips. How is this equally EV for the bye? He didn't determine the table/round draw.


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how is it unequal EV?

it is equal because the bye has a 100% chance of making it to the 2nd round with 1500chips...and a 33% of of making it to the 3rd round with 4500 chips. the playin has a 50% chance of making it to the 2nd round with 3000 chips (not so coincidentally, 3000*.50 = 1500...) and then a 67% from there of making it to the 3rd round with 4500 chips. .50*.67 = a 33% of making it to round 3 with 4500- same as for the bye.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guy wins first match, has 3k chips. Bye starts match with this player with 1.5k chips. How is this equally EV for the bye? He didn't determine the table/round draw.


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how is it unequal EV?

it is equal because the bye has a 100% chance of making it to the 2nd round with 1500chips...and a 33% of of making it to the 3rd round with 4500 chips. the playin has a 50% chance of making it to the 2nd round with 3000 chips (not so coincidentally, 3000*.50 = 1500...) and then a 67% from there of making it to the 3rd round with 4500 chips. .50*.67 = a 33% of making it to round 3 with 4500- same as for the bye.

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How much of a factor do you think the fact that the blinds aren't static from round to round come into play?

Bye guy could be starting as low as 10-15BB in round 2, while the play-in would have 20-30BB. Assuming equal skill levels in a vacuum, can you automatically assume that their probabilities of making it to round 3 are still 2:1?

[willie24]

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Bye guy could be starting as low as 10-15BB in round 2, while the play-in would have 20-30BB. Assuming equal skill levels in a vacuum can you automatically assume that their probabilities of making it to round 3 are still 2:1?


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absolutely.

in heads up play "maximum bet/blind" is the same for both players, so, assuming equal skill, blind size should have no effect on either's probability of winning.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Bye guy could be starting as low as 10-15BB in round 2, while the play-in would have 20-30BB. Assuming equal skill levels in a vacuum can you automatically assume that their probabilities of making it to round 3 are still 2:1?


[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely.

in heads up play "maximum bet/blind" is the same for both players, so, assuming equal skill, blind size should have no effect on either's probability of winning.

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OK. But in relation to the other players in the MTT, both of them have increased expectation, so the play-in who draws the bye opponent would have 33% expectation of winning both matches. The bye player also has a 33% expectation of going to round 3.

A disparity occurs, however, when you consider the overall structure of the MTT, and the fact that two play-ins who win their first match and are paired up now have a 25% expectation of going to round 3 from round 1.

Still a fair concept? This would seem to benefit the opponent who drew the bye player more than anybody else in the MTT, as he has a 67% expectation of going from round 2 to round 3.

[willie24]

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A disparity occurs, however, when you consider the overall structure of the MTT, and the fact that two play-ins who win their first match and are paired up now have a 25% expectation of going to round 3 from round 1.


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right, but the winner of this round 2 match will have 6000 in chips for round 3 (rather than 4500) which makes up for his 25% chance of making round 3 (compared to 33%)

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Still a fair concept?

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yes

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This would seem to benefit the opponent who drew the bye player more than anybody else in the MTT, as he has a 67% expectation of going from round 2 to round 3.

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no, not at all. all examples listed so far (and any others that exist, such as bye vs bye) have equal starting EVs. If you would rather be the guy who plays in and then plays a bye with a 3000 to 1500 chip advantage because you like the 67% going from round 2 to 3, that's a personal preference (roughly equivalent to which # seat you draw at a MTT table) that has nothing to do with EV.

Even if you could somehow prove that being a play-in or a bye gives you some psychological advantage (which i doubt anyone could) it would certainly be a small one- way under 10%.

Under the current system that PS and AP use, byes have a 100% EV advantage on play-ins. (or playins have a 50% disadvantage to look at it from the other direction)