raising the river ...

[jordiepop]

I like raising here. my opp is very loose and i def feel he has kings up here. thoughts?
7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.40, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (5.45 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.73 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (5.73 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (7.73 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls

Total pot: (11.73 BB - $46.90)

[MRBAA]

A raise here will never win you a pot you weren't going to win anyway, since any hand that beats aces up will call. So it's made strictly for value, on the belief that (a) your hand is good and (b) your opponent has something he's likely to call with. I think both assumptions are reasonable here -- his most likely hand is two pair and he's likely to pay off with it -- so I think a raise is solid. There are some opponents (very timid ones who I've played with a bit and who respect me) against whom I would just call, because I believe they'd generally need more than two pair to bet the river. But they are the exception.

[TheSalche]

If you feel you can fold to a 3-bet, then I a raise is good.

[2461Badugi]

Why call third if you're just going to bet out on fourth?

[Wahoo73]

I don't know what jordie's reasoning was for this, but here's why I like the play.

If I raise the BI with an A door-card and a K door card behind me re-raises, unless the guy is a total idiot, there are only two reasons he would re-raise: he's rolled-up with Ks or he doesn't believe I have As. If it's the former, I don't want to cap because I'm then way behind and pot-committed. If it's the latter, I can prove to him that I really do have the As by betting out on 4th street. (I realize that you are suggesting that jordie could also accomplish this by trying to check-raise 4th street, and I will try this occasionally as well in this situation just to mix up my play.)

In practical application at these betting levels, I have found that I seem to get more respect by playing it the way jordie did than the way you suggest. Is this necessarily the more mathematically sound way to play it? Not necessarily, but it seems to have some psychological value. And it's these types of plays in these types of situations that make stud poker so interesting.

BTW, I also like jordie's raise on the river.

[2461Badugi]

I'm not really suggesting a line. I'm just curious what the motivation is.

If you're missing a bet to gain respect, why is the respect worth more than the bet? Most of the time when I have aces against kings I'm happy being Rodney Dangerfield, even though the variance sucks.

I think you're getting equally hammered against rolled kings with either line.

Edit: sorry for straying off-topic, but I think MRBAA's rundown on the river is perfect.

[TheSalche]

Re-raise from kings may just be to isolate, or come from a hand like KAK (reason for him not to think you have aces).

He could also have AA in the hole

[MRBAA]

In this game, it's also very likely he thinks that...he has kings, so he raises.

[blumpkin]

You could easily be stealing, and he should be reraising you with just kings (or worse). Fearing rolled up kings here is very weak.

Third and fourth aside, this hand is standard, and the river raise is automatic versus the typical player in these games.

[MrBlueNose]

[ QUOTE ]
In this game, it's also very likely he thinks that...he has kings, so he raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true.

And I like the 3rd/4th play as an option because 90% of people at that site/limit will simply reraise with aces and keep going. By calling then betting, it mixes it up and makes them want to look you up/pay you off more. Remember, every fish is just looking for a reason to stay in the hand, and as played, villain is going to think "HE CANT HAVE ACES DAGNABIT! HE WOULDA 3-BET ME ON 3RD! HE IS FOS" and call down.

And yes, I raise river every day and twice on Sundays. Well, I'd like to but no stupid software includes that Sunday double raise option.