Loosing session in maniac land

H20 · #1 09-11-2006, 09:30 AM

I knew the 3rd guy would call 2 cold, and they never fold flop. Villain bluff raises turn from times and I'd expected the button to call down with lower pocket or two overcards.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB raises, Hero calls, CO calls.
The guy to my left vpip 70% pf raise 54% agrF 5
All players +50vpip and v loose preflop, most of the agressive

River: (12 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Hand #2
I was getting frustrated here, if preflop is not ok, I should still do it in later position right?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB

theflyingcow · #2 09-11-2006, 10:47 AM

Um for hand 1, when you mention the guy on your left's stats, did you mean the guy on your right (SB?) or really the guy on your left (CO)? I ask this because it would make sense to talk about the guy's stats if you suspect him for bluff-raising with air. If so, I'd call him down any day.

Hand 2: wtf is with reraising 44? If it's an isoraise because UTG raises with absolute crap, it's a marginal one since he could easily have 2 overs. But normally, if my opponents are absolute maniacs, I'll tighten up and 3-town the maniac with AT+, KJ+, 77+. I think 44 might be a little too loose.

bobhalford · #3 09-11-2006, 10:49 AM

Hand 1 I would usually fold the turn, but against loose aggressive players, I think it's a guilt-free calldown.

In hand 2 I'm not a fan of preflop. I'd prefer to respect the UTG raise. As for the rest of the hand...I don't know. I think you are beat a lot here by a better pocket that thinks you have QQ+.

aargh57 · #4 09-11-2006, 11:49 AM

In hand 1, did you mean the guy to your right (SB)has those stats? I think hand 1 is ok.

Hand 2, I wouldn't 3 bet with 44 here even on the button. I know he's a maniac but I still think 44 is a too weak to do this unless you're very certain you can get it HU. In this type of game I think you have too much chance of one of the blinds calling you.

kross · #5 09-11-2006, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
All players +50vpip and v loose preflop, most of the agressive

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the late-night LAGs...

Anyway, in hand 1, you're in a tough spot. Everything has to be perfect for this to be right. One guy has to be bluffing, the other guy has to be calling with crap. How often is this the case? Is it often enough to call down? I don't know. I'm a pansy, and probably fold and look for a better spot.

Hand 2, the 3-bet preflop is a little LAG for me. I suppose you could cold-call, hope for a big multiway pot, and play for set value alone. As played, you got to showdown cheap, so I guess it's okay..

H20 · #6 09-11-2006, 10:56 PM

Yes, I meant the guy on my right and the guy I called the btn the co, sorry for the mixup.
So nobody would check call the turn in the first hand?

aargh57 · #7 09-12-2006, 09:15 AM

No, I don't think check/calling the turn is good here. I think you should be trying to protect your hand here.

W. Deranged · #8 09-12-2006, 10:23 AM

HAND #1

1. Pre-flop and flop are standard.

2. Checking this turn would be a big mistake.

3. Think harder about this calldown. Everyone is focusing two much on the "bluffer"'s (SB's) stats. There are other things to consider. Most importantly, the pot is three-handed, and SB is check-raising BOTH you and the other guy. His raise shut out no one, and for it to work as a bluff he'd need to get two people to fold who have already put in a turn bet. I'm not saying that our opponent would think about all this, but many LAGs have at least a reasonable intuition for what are okay bluffs are what are terrible bluffs.

We should also consider that, since he's a Lag, he's more likely to be making this play with a mediocre hand, but one that beats ours, including a K.

We also should consider that CO could very easily have a bad K which he is never folding here.

We're getting 6- or 6.5-1 on a calldown here. So we need to be confident we're winning around 15% of the time to call down. But we're parlaying. If, say, we're beating SB 25% of the time and CO 60%, we are breakeven. But, obviously this decision is very sensitive to those percentages.

I think in the end this calldown is never going to be more than very slightly profitable, and it adds a ton of variance.

aargh57 · #9 09-12-2006, 11:02 AM

Deranged,

As for point 3, wouldn't we fold the turn then? If we're planning on folding the river UI what's the point of calling this turn.

W. Deranged · #10 09-12-2006, 11:47 AM

1. Calling this turn and folding the river unimproved is retarded. We're never getting a free showdown, and we definitely don't have odds to draw to a set.

2. I think we should probably fold this turn. It's a situation where maybe we should call down, and maybe we shouldn't. Since calling down can never be more than very slightly profitable, and it's high variance, and we are in a kind of "blackbox" situation, I tend to opt for a fold.