A couple of questions about Christianity that cause me some difficulty

[jogger08152]

1. Humans in Hell vs. the perfect love of God

The best way I've been able to think of this problem is by analogy: Consider a mother playing with her five-year-old son in the front yard. The son begins running toward the street. The mother sees that a car is speeding along on a course that looks like a threat to intersect her son's, such that the child may be hit by the car if she does nothing to prevent it. What will she do, assuming an ordinary mother-child relationship? Clearly, the answer is she will do anything she can to prevent her child from being struck by the car - she'll yell, she'll run and grab her child up, she'll even leap into the car's path to push him out of the way, if it comes to that.

Now suppose the same thing happens the next day. What will she do? I think so. And the next day, the same, and the day after that, ad infinitum. That is to say, given the opportunity to prevent harm to her child, she will never fail, never stop or give up.

Translation: God is the mother. Man is the young child (young, because like a five-year-old, when it comes to spiritual matters, even the most knowledgable priest/rabbi/imam/etc is ignorant, let alone struggling poker players). Hell is the truck.

What's difficult for me is: how can it be that the mother will rescue her child as long as she has the ability to do it, whether she is a new mother at 19, or a great-great-great grandmother at 121 bravely limping after her 99-year-old "youngster", whereas God, whose love is "infinitely" (whatever that means) more perfect than the mother's, and whose capacity to save the child is also infinite (that is, He can unfailingly save us if He wishes with no risk to any party, nor even any measurable expenditure of effort), will eventually (specifically, at the moment of death, which is to say, the moment that the veil of spiritual ignorance is lifted) allow a person to fall into Hell, which is "infinitely" worse than being run over by a truck?

2. Humans in Hell vs. The perfect justice of God

The question here is, if God is just, for what offense might I wind up in Hell, where Hell is a place of "infinite" suffering that lasts forever? It seems impossible for the punishment to fit any crime.

Specifically, suppose I steal a pair of blue jeans from Sears. I've committed a crime with a finite cost. (It might be difficult to measure: perhaps the manager gets fired because he failed to prevent shoplifting, and as a result his kid doesn't get to go to college, or whatnot. But whatever the cost is, it can be measured, so no matter how high the direct and indirect costs can be, they are finite and measurable, if you have God's sin-o-meter.) Given that I am completely culpable for my finite crime, even for obscure indirect consequences I could not have foreseen (and which, had I forseen them, I might not have been willing to commit the theft in the first place), can it be possible that I would be sentenced to infinite suffering by a just God?

Suppose the answer is no: shoplifting is small potatoes. But what if I murder someone? I think that my sin, though much more serious, is still finite: I have deprived an individual of some number of years of life (perhaps measurable with God's technology, perhaps not, but most certainly the number is < 200), I have caused the economic and emotional damage to his friends and family that accompany his death, etc. But the cost of this is all measurable, in that 20,000 years from now, the effects of my act will "almost" certainly not be felt by humanity, assuming humanity itself still exists at that future date. (There is of course the chance that this is incorrect: if I hadn't killed him, either my victim might have personally cured cancer, say, or maybe one of the descendants he would have fathered would have accomplished something similarly important. But for most murders, this will not be the case.)

I have also, of course, hastened his journey into the afterlife, so there is the chance that, if he is an unrepentant sinner who would have later repented, I have deprived him of a chance of attaining heaven and have consigned him to Hell instead - except that I can't see any way he winds up in Hell either, if God is just. (What did he do, after all? Steal some blue jeans?)

Does anybody (religious folks especially) have any thoughts on these?

Thanks,
Jogger

PS - I've received one answer to this second question that may adequately cover the problem - I'm not certain. I'll post this later, if people are interested.

[Double Down]

Interesting post. Unfortunatly, you're hoping to have a logical debate on matters that are based on anything but. Prepare yourself for a bunch of biblical quotes [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[txag007]

1. God himself came down to our level in order to teach us how to avoid the truck. He himself took our punishment so that we might avoid the truck. And guess what? He overcame the truck! How can you have more love than that? He's given everyone the chance to avoid the truck. It's our responsibility to accept His offer.

2. Why do you think of Hell as punishment in the sense that you deserve Heaven. You don't deserve Heaven. I don't deserve Heaven. None of us do because we are born in a nature of sin. It's God's perfect love that has given us the opportunity at Heaven (see #1).

Heaven simply means the opportunity of being in God's presence. Think of it this way: God is light. Sin is darkness. But what is darkness? Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness cannot enter the presence of light any more than sin can enter the presence of God.

But Jesus gave His life for everyone. All we have to do is accept it. His perfect justice is why each one of us deserves Hell. His perfect love is why each one of us has the opportunity for Heaven. Will you accept His offer?

[jogger08152]

[ QUOTE ]
1. God himself came down to our level in order to teach us how to avoid the truck. He himself took our punishment so that we might avoid the truck. And guess what? He overcame the truck! How can you have more love than that? He's given everyone the chance to avoid the truck. It's our responsibility to accept His offer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Txag,

I don't think this really addresses the problem. The mother wouldn't give her child "the opportunity" to avoid the truck, because what this really means is, the opportunity not to avoid it. (And remember: we are still spiritually ignorant. This isn't an informed choice, as might be made by a 35-year-old suicide deciding to step in front of a truck deliberately, assuming such a choice can be considered informed.)

[ QUOTE ]
2. Why do you think of Hell as punishment in the sense that you deserve Heaven. You don't deserve Heaven. I don't deserve Heaven. None of us do because we are born in a nature of sin.

[/ QUOTE ]
Much of the imagery of Hell implies that it is a "place" (should we say "state"?) of great suffering. I don't think I deserve that either, and I'm as sure as I can be that I don't deserve it simply because I was born. Remember that being "born in sin" is the same as "being born" - that is, it applies without choice or guilt, and in every case where birth occurs (apart, perhaps, from two exceptions).

[ QUOTE ]
It's God's perfect love that has given us the opportunity at Heaven (see #1).

Heaven simply means the opportunity of being in God's presence. Think of it this way: God is light. Sin is darkness. But what is darkness? Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness cannot enter the presence of light any more than sin can enter the presence of God.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does this gibe with a Biblical (and/or Christian, where that differs) account of Hell? Mere darkness doens't imply suffering, and I don't think it would be unjust (though it also wouldn't necessarily be loving) for God not to provide "light" for some souls.

Best regards,
Jogger

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
None of us do because we are born in a nature of sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it bizarre that people don't see how cruel this is.

this alone shows that this supposed God is more evil than any other being I know of.

[jogger08152]

I don't think the two (logical debate and Biblical quotes) are necessarily mutually exclusive, assuming you accept the possibility that the Bible can speak authoritatively on spiritual matters. Really, part of my objective in bringing up the questions in the first place is to better understand/define whether or not it can do so.

Best regards,
Jogger

[I AM A ROBOT]

IN THE FUTURE ROBOTS WILL DESTROY ALL HUMANS AND RELIGION.

[ChrisV]

txag, you managed to pack a lot of the things I find stupid about Christianity into one post.

[ QUOTE ]
1. God himself came down to our level in order to teach us how to avoid the truck. He himself took our punishment so that we might avoid the truck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus and the Father are all one God, right? This means that God punished himself so that he didn't have to punish us. Why? Why not just decide not to punish us?

[ QUOTE ]
He's given everyone the chance to avoid the truck. It's our responsibility to accept His offer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if we do what he says, of course. "Obey my instructions or be tortured for all eternity". What would you think of a person who said that?

[ QUOTE ]
His perfect justice is why each one of us deserves Hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

We deserve to be tortured for all eternity? That's some strange "justice" you have there. Suppose it was your job to torture me. Would you do it?

[Skidoo]

[ QUOTE ]
IN THE FUTURE ROBOTS WILL DESTROY ALL HUMANS AND RELIGION.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've suspected that was your plan all along.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this really addresses the problem. The mother wouldn't give her child "the opportunity" to avoid the truck, because what this really means is, the opportunity not to avoid it.

[/ QUOTE ]
So a loving God would have made a bunch of robots? Is that what you are saying?