[kleath]

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Curtains you're arguing that reverse implied odds don't exist in NLHE, this is just not true.

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OH MY GOD. Of course they exist. However there is never a situation where the theoretical outcome of a play will cost you more chips than you have put in. The reverse implied odds may lower your theoretical EV, but it can never lower it beyond the chips you've already put in the pot.

For instance let's say that theoretically you put 100 chips into the pot OOP with AJo. Let's say that normally the play would be breakeven, but because of stack sizes, position and etc, the play will instead cost you 30 chips of EV. That is where reverse implied odds may come in.

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Here's an example for you:

Full table everyone is 500bbs deep, you are UTG and raise 3x and everybody calls, we happen to know that everyone at the table will play perfectly postflop. Now we simulate this situation with the same table layout but each persons cards get moved to the left player every hand, this is simulated to get a significant sample. By your contention everyone's EV here will be neutral over a large sample, I don't believe this is true.

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I'm confused what you mean? All I'm saying is that our EV won't be worse than the chips we already put in. Forgive me but I don't understand exactly what you are saying, but I'm also pretty sure you don't understand what I'm saying.

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If theoretically our ev from preflop cannot be worse than the amount of chips we commit, then based strictly on postflop everyone in that example would be neutral ev, Im saying given equal skill level having position over each hand(cards being rotated to ignore the strength of any individuals hand) will show positive expectation, if the button has +EV then someone has to be -EV, thus you can not make a mistake but still cause yourself to lose value due to pf.