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bubaloo · #5 11-28-2007, 02:58 PM

theres more....

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I think too many people check the turn way too frequently, and people are missing alot of value.

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 Could you give some examples where SSNL/uNlers check behind where betting is usually superior. 

This is tough, because I may throw out a hand that people are not checking. But the general idea is top pair on most boards where you bet the flop and are in the lead... bet the turn. People FAR too often worry about being c/rai, and: 1. often the decision is easy (villain sucks and has a set, fold) 2. people so infrequently c/r the turn.

 Or what factors do you consider on the turn? 

The opponent, the board, my hand, what I think villain has. :X

 (I see you briefly mentioned there's there's a part in your book on this)
I'm looking into getting some coaching in the near future -as I think I have some major leaks that I'm not aware of that have crept in and missing some basics.
Do you reckon it's has some value for us uNL/SSNL halfies having some coaching or should we just use 2p2/books/play? 

I think coaching is great - I was coached by 2 different players, and I think both made me into a more complete player. The better question is it worth the cost to you - This all depends on how much you play. 2p2, by FAR, is the best resource period. without being too elitist, it simply makes bad players good and good players great. Id recommend trying to generate your own strategies (with the aid of 2p2) and play X hands, and see where you are. Then make the decision whether or not to hire someone.

 why check this turn ---> A8o raised CO, 8s 7s 6h 

I think you're asking why I check the flop there - and there are a million reasons. This may surprise you, but I'd also check KK, T7, 34h, and KJo there. I sometimes would check A4s. I would never check A6, K7h, T9, 77, or J9s.

 I respect your posts and have heard great things about your coaching.
Basically, I'm just wondering why you havent made more money, been more successful at poker. Not trying to be rude, just trying to figure out how someone with such grasp of the game hasnt been able to turn knowledge into more money. Is it tilt, boredom, and do you think you'll get to big games in future? 

haha, nice q.
1. I have made nice money. I was going to say "I have made X more then this person and that person etc" but thats de classe and not me. but, I am 21, have been able to buy a new car, buy lots of fun stuff (including expensive computer stuff), buy nice gifts to people, etc. Obviously I wish I played more when poker WAS softer and made more then, but it's a minor regret.
2. Also, discipline is a huge factor. I'm shocked at some people on 2p2 who log insane amount of hands - I have alot of respect for their devotion. (like punter, HEK, snowbank, etc.) I played 30k hands last month which is the most I've played in a long, long time. The reason I dont play as much is... I'm not nearly as good at multitabling as those guys. (6max I play 4 or 5 tables, the past ~2 weeks I've been 9 tabling full ring tho, as a mini experiment). Also, I do (most of the time!) go to classes.
3. Will I ever play in games as high as durr, aba, etc? No way. This summer while in Vegas I plan on playing 10-20 everyday, which should be fun. If I play higher then that I dont think i'd be comfortable, since Ive never played higher then that.

 Bobbo, great thread, thanks for posting.
What kind of things do you look at when studying through poker tracker? just reviewing tough hands you played and calculating equity street by street? Do you study regulars in your game and their stats to look for leaks? 

Ok, great Q, because I advocate self analysis so much. First thing to do is filter PT for HU, 3 way, 4 way, etc. Alot of times stats are misleading; if you play 6max, but have a ton of HU hands, all your stats will be skewed to looser/more aggressive then you may be.
Another fun thing to do is check all the times you checkraise, just for an idea of what situations are you c/r; if they're not getting called, and it's always with a set, consider checkraising more hands. i love filtering and seeing my c/r, bc...
On the flop 6handed they tend to be mostly sets. (or 2pair)
On the turn 6handed they tend to be mostly draws or stackadonk. (big pairs)
On the river 6handed they tend to be mostly bluffs.

Who knows why =)

Another thing to check is your VPIP put in as a PFR, then won and lost hands that WENT to showdown. check out hands your'e playing when you're going to showdown and winnign: coudl you have gotten a turn bet in? could yuo have value bet more on the river? Likewise, the pots that were lost, ask yourself: Shoudl I have paid off that river? What did I think he had on the turn/etc?

Working back over that (and seeing results in your face) help mesh things together

 How can I grow the balls to move up and make more serious money when I'm so relaxed and calm beating the 100 and 200 games for good money? A few $1k flips? $5k shot at 5/10 or 3/6 or something? It's sick how little I care about what is going on sometimes when the money seems of such little importance, yet when I consider moving up and dealing w/ $4k swings it makes me [censored] my pants. 

I would advise heavily against flips. A few 2p2 friends who will remain nameless have nearly gone busto by stupid flipping. To me, when so many ppl hate variance, why do these ~0EV flips?

Move up tho when you're ready. If you're not ready, dont force yourself.

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Co raises to 4BB its folded to you in the BB. What is your calling range, what is your raising range?
How does this change if you're in the SB?

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In that case I'm cold calling 88-22, A5s-A2s.

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most ppl i think would argue that calling w/ weak suited aces in the blinds is unprofitable for a lot of ppl in most situations. plz explain why this is in general a profitable play. 

Ok, it starts like this -
I have a suited ace, [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
villain opens the pot, [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
I cold call out of position, [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
Flop contains XXX, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
I check, [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
He bets, [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I raise! [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
He folds! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
I win the pot, [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Or,...
He 3bets! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
I fold! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Typically tho i exude fewer emotes online while playing, in an effort to not betray my poker face.

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Thanks, good read. What do you think of this?
Standard? SB is your typical 30/10 recreational player.
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$1/$2 Blinds
6 Players
Lego Poker Hand Converter

Stack Sizes
SB: $204
BB: $200.75
UTG: $334.60
MP: $249.75
CO: $221.45
Hero (BTN): $197

Preflop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($3, 6 Players)
UTG folds, MP raises to $7, CO folds, Hero calls $7, SB calls $6, BB folds

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($23, 3 Players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $17, SB raises to $47, MP folds, Hero raises all-in to $190

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Hmm. very interesting hand, for a ton of reasons. I hope if you posted this, it generated good discussion, because it deals with: Calling pf w/ SC in pos (1) dealing with a decent draw in a 3way raised pot (2) facing a c/r from a non pfr when they check, which is worrisome (3)

Here's my take:
Preflop I sometimes call here, sometimes fold, and sometimes 3bet. Kinda a cop out, but all 3 can be defended, and depending on villain, can all be right.
On the flop, this is what you should be thinking of: I have an aggressive draw (2 overs, nut OESD, bdflush, but also on a 2tone board) in a raised pot (12 bb in there). effective stack is your stack, 190, or 8x the pot.

First question: If preflop raiser cbets, what is your standard play? interestingly, the play is to call. If you raise you must call a push, and your draw isnt big enough so that you care if you put the last bet in or not. you need to be able to put the last bet in to work it effectively (winning a mid sized pot w/o showdown)

However, pfr does not bet, so the next question is, should I bet here? A freecard doesnt hurt, and it looks like if the PFR had anything (overpair, draw, even ace high may cbet!) he would've bet. So, I'd discount him. The sb's range is 30/10, which is pretty wide here, and does NOT mean his range is weighted towards small pairs/etc. So, alot of his hands (Ax, broadways) also missed.

So i'd bet 3/4 pot with a fairly wide range of hands here, (~20, I do like your bet here) and obv fold alot of the stuff to a sb c/r.

However, this time, you have a solid hand that has a ton of equity vs most hands. So the next question is should you push (he'd be calling ~145 to win 410, or he'd need 35% equity) and you'd be laying 173 to pick up 87, and when called roughly (this is the fun part, how much equity do you think you have when called? Never more then 40%, although in bizzaro world you could technically have the best hand vs 67spades or something... but id lean to ~30% in general. real good time for a pokerstove sim)

anyway, if always called, this is not a great move. So, would a sb who prolly planend to c/r the pfr (and trap you in the middle, if he was thinking) ever fold to this push? Unfortunately if he c/r a draw (spades that could have yuo high carded) and the such is now priced in, so you cant make draws fold. I think that fold equity is very diminished; but, getting the immediate price of 30:117, with position and stacks left drawing to the nuts, calling becomes very nice.

So, I wont leave you with an exact answer, but rather a few questions:
1. How often do you think he folds to the c/r? (continued) How often does he need to fold to make this +EV?
2. What hand range are you putting him on, given he called pf oop, is somewhat loose passive, then went for a checkraise in a 3way raised pot?
3. If you do call, what should your plans be on different cards?

I will say, in a nutshell, this hand looks solid, but may not be optimal. (Meaning, calling may be better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )
Also, if we did NOT have position, the decision would be more like push or fold, rather then push or call. Why do you think this is?

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Thanks for the detailed response. Here is a basic sim of his c/r + calling range imo. Anything you think I should add?
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
13,860 games 0.005 secs 2,772,000 games/sec
Board: 9s 4s 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.470% 33.47% 00.00% 4639 0.00 { JcTc }
Hand 1: 66.530% 66.53% 00.00% 9221 0.00 { 99-88, 44, A9s, 98s }

As for your questions:
1. After thinking about this hand some more, I think he folds maybe 10% of the hands he's c/ring with, so w/o doing the math (which I need help with in determining how often he needs to fold to make a push EV), the push looks pretty bad.
2. See stove sim, and add in some things like T9s/J9s. I think these types of players are far more likely to c/r TP than they are draws. I think he rarely c/r's a draw here.
3. Got any specific turn cards in mind? In general, I think I've gotta push over a turn bet if I hit any of my 8 straight outs. I also don't think any of my straight outs are dirty, since I think he rarely c/r's a FD on the flop. I guess I gotta consider my pair outs to be semi-dirty and proceed with caution to a big turn bet. If he's c/ring the flop with A9, I don't think he's firing a J/T turn. What do you think?
If we are OOP, it becomes more push/fold since it's harder to get paid when we hit, get a free river card less often, and he's raising a slightly bigger range when he's in position.

How'd I do? 

First, you did well. Congrats =)

re: his c/r-> call range, I think it's a tiny bit wider, he's not a tag, he's looser and not aggro pf. (example, I wouldnt be shocked for him to have TT) its hard to discern if he takes this line with ALL these hands, but something like this is realistic - I've added a bunch of combo draws which still account a small % given just 1 combo of each. I added a few more TP combos, and not to overweight them, just included suited variety so its not too many combos. I didnt include any random air, like 22 or AK, bc c/r-> call would be so weird and really not happening.

Board: 9s 4s 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.219% 33.59% 03.63% 12305 1328.50 { JcTc }
Hand 1: 62.781% 59.15% 03.63% 21668 1328.50 { TT-88, 44, A9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As3s, As2s, QsTs, Q9s, J9s+, T9s, Ts8s, 98s, 8s7s, 7s6s }

Anyway, our range differs by ~4%, which is actually in a 200bb pot fairly substantial. All additional equity matters. In fact, the taggier the opponent, the fewer TP combos and the closer to your range it becomes, but still roughly ~34% or so.

So, lets answer #1: I think 10% is fair assessment. he's taken a strong line, which removes air alot, and (JUST BASED ON PF STATS ALONE WHICH OFTEN IS NOT FAIR TO DO) seems like he will stack here with one pair. Also, the draws are committed, so it's not like he can c/r semibluff then opt to fold in this big pot now.
Lets continue onto #2, before answering the second half of #1 - I think its possible (in the 10 to 12% of c/r-> fold) he c/r misclicks, a VERY weak draw (like Qto) or something like 55. Those are reasonable bluff type hands that then fold. The poker stove hand range above demonstrate some other possibilities, although w/o having extensive knowledge of said player, we cant narrow his holdings to any degree of frequency.

So, back to #1; he folds 10 to 12%, and when called, we have 37% equity.
When he folds, we win 87$. That is 1 in 8. (+10.8)
When called, we have 37% equity of 410, or ~152$. We're also putting in 173$, which means 7 out of 8 this is net -21$. (-18.3)
So, we win 10.8 and lose 18.3, so interestingly, unless he folds more often, or we have slightly more equity, this is a -EV play. (-7.5$ or roughly 4bb)
One note - this is a case where if you played with someone alot, you could sacrifice EV (here, ~7.5$, which is 4bb, which is substantial) in effort to "balance" your sets, so that villain DOES c/r->stack off 1pair. (bc when you have the set or two pair, villain has v v low equity and you make a huge leap) but against an unknown and most regulars this is irrelevant.

For this to be +EV, villain needs to fold closer to 20% of the time (+87 2 in 10, +17.4 vs -21 8 in 10, -16.8) which produces a near break even result. Anything greater then that, and the play starts to look very nice.

3. turn plans? Well, if you jsut call, 117 in the pot with 141 behind. if you checks, id really want to shove, because THERE he would fold a draw priced out and maybe top pair or whatever fearing he's being trapped. this happens v rarely. i may check there too. not worth considering. if he bets... (less then all in or all in) if i hit a 6 outer im def all in. the tough spots are if a club hits (we improve, there if he pushes bam we cant really call unless J or T are live too, but i would LOVE to gamble there) if a spade hits (including our straight outs, we could be dead) or if a J/T hit. Anyway, if i suspect there is any FE when they lead the turn, i may shove a club/J/T, otherwise id just call on those priced in.

How did that hand work out? Would be awesome if villain folded, but based on your pokerstove range, im guessing you ran into a big hand and didnt suck out.

about OOP: You nailed it. In position we def. have implied odds esp. if he has a set or 2pair or whatever and sometimes can steal the pot or take a freebie. oop this is not the case, and although the odds offered are good, they're not good enough.

 Might be a tough question but what % of SSNLers do you think have what it takes to be succesful at MSNL?
Also tips for moving from 1/2 to 2/4? 

1. Almost all of them, provided they work at it and have the discpline factor.
2. It's the same game, just twice the money.

 lol, and you refrain from calling w/ A6s-A9s b/c they can't make cool straights as easily and if you hit a 9 it's unfortunately unfoldable regardless of opponents action? 

well, no. the straight value helps, lower trips are more disguised (and more small overpairs stack off there) and its alot easier to fold top pair w/ a 5 then as an 8.

 Thanks for doing this well man, lots of really good stuff in here..
1) I have a hard time dealing with minraises. They tend to set me on instatilt and I feel like I just end up playing the rest of the hand feeling lost.. What would your plan be for the rest of this hand:
(btw villain is 70/6 over just 35 hands)

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $94.00
CO: $58.80
Button: $562.60
Hero: $200.00
BB: $166.80

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, Hero raises to $7, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($14, 2 players)
Hero bets $10, BB raises to $20, Hero ?? 

Against a normal villain, I may check this flop. Actually, it would be my default play. This dude with 70 vpip for him any pair is the nuts and I 3bet and play for stacks, it's BvB. (make it 65, call push)

 2) If you raise an EP fish from MP with AJo, a loose passive fish calls me in the CO or OTB, are you cbetting a 552 flop? I feel like I never get a fold in this spot but OTOH I feel like checking is really weak. 

100% definitely.

 6 max game. 100 BB effective stacks. you're in the CO playing your standard game. A player UTG raises to 4BB. Its folded to you and you pop it to 15BB. Its folded to UTG. UTG calls your raise.
Assume reads are minimum and all you have is stats collected over 100 hands or so. Put the following villains on a range.
1)19/15/2
2)32/20/2
3)40/10/1.5
4)14/10/4
5)27/23/3 

1. AA-99, AK/AQ.
2. This could go alot of ways. If he's tough his range is whatever he opened UTG, which is still wide. This is both a positive and negative for me, depending on what I 3bet with!
3. 40/10 opens tight utg but probably calls all the reraises due to seeing flop mentality. something like 99+, ATo+, ATs+, KQs.
4. This is very nitty pf, if a guy like this opens pf and calls (unless i think he 4bets AA/KK) its an ultra premium, with AK or JJ being the worst. If I 3bet him though I probably have the same range though.
5. Similar to #2. Probably a tougher opponent bc slightly more aggro and a little less spewy, a big on the laggro side. These guys can give trouble bc their hand ranges are wider.

for the most part its all irrelevant until they c/r me all in or lead into me on the flop, only then do i need to assign hand range =p

 Can you go over nl 6 max situations where youd ever open limp (if ever) or limp behind (you can keep it generic and buy in specific if desired) 

Ok, good q. Open limp, 6 max, never. Full ring, I open limp from EP AA/KK from time to time to lrr, and often small PPs that I dont want to raise with. (obv call a raise) sometimes ill limp AT type stuff (KQ too) but generally ill fold to a raise. I've l/rr with some of those, too, but normally when I think there is weakness.
Over limp... I love overlimping in both spots. There are some very good overlimping spots, and without too much detail, AXs, suited broadways, and offsuit broadways I think should be overlimped and not raise/fold.

 do you prefer playing live or online? 

if im feeling sick, online. other wise, live.

 Bobbo,

can you quickly commment on this hand? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=0#Post9863755)
I think there is a fundamental concept I am missing in this situation (and so many situations like it) where I am just completely lost. No matter what I do in these situations i feel i did something wrong.
thx 

sure, the hand in brief again:

Stack Sizes
SB: $105.25
BB: $97.50
Hero (UTG): $228.15
CO: $100
BTN: $99.50

Preflop: J J ($1.50, 5 Players)
Hero raises to $4, CO raises to $12, 3 folds, Hero calls $8

Flop: 6 5 8 ($27, 2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $17, CO folds, hero goes all-in

flop has 2 spades, too*

There are a few ways to approach this hand. The first is knowing more about your opponent; if he's been 3betting alot, you're allowed to 4bet/call all in. if he hasnt been 3betting alot and hasnt been active whatsoever, you can set mine. Seems insanely weak but technically you can check fold the flop.

Without either of those two parameters (either heavy action or no action whatsoever) the standard is to call, and not necessarily release the flop, but approach it cautiously.

So now we make it to the flop in the standard fashion, and we have somewhat of a situation; an incredibly heavy board, a 27$ pot, and effective stacks of 88. (3.3 pot:stack)

For the most part w/ anything really strong or draw I'd checkraise all in here. If i c/r ai I prolly never have air, and at the minimum some sort of draw considering the board.

The problem really is... Jacks is just too strong in relative strength to release, without more info about villain. (somewhat nitty, I mean) Also, given the board and being OOP, its too tough to call 17 here, since that sets up 61 in the pot with 71 behind. So, if you call, what do you hope? it's checked down? with 2 streets to go, and even KQ/Ak/Aq having ~25%+ (depending on suits) equity in a sizable pot, (or if they have a weird hand like 67 or 89 etc, they have lots of equity) its just too tough to play. So, its a real push/fold spot.

The other option is to call and shove any turn, but I like your play here. If it makes you feel any better I'd probably do the same with 9s and Tens too, unless I have more opponent information, but for 100bb in a fairly aggro game (CO open / Btn repop situation) w. JJ as an OP its generally time to go busto.

I think you may have wanted better advice here, and I'm sorry I cant give it, but against some people you can check fold, but against most it's a check push.

 bobbo,
I posted this in MSNL but I figured I'd post it here, too.

Villain is pretty much unknown, definitely not a regular though. He seems loose preflop but over a small sample. This is the first time I've 3 bet him, and I've been in line so far.

2/4 6 max, I have $405 and he covers.

LAG raises UTG+1 to $14, Villain calls next to act, I make it $60 from the SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], LAG folds and Villain calls.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($135)

I lead for $75, villain calls.

Turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($285)

Hero?
I have $270 left on the turn. 

check call up to all in, if he checks behind consider value pushing the river or check folding. if its a 4th heart as well, consider value pushing the river or check folding. if its a jack, consider value pushing the river or check calling.

 That 8x7s6s flop that we're checking w/ KK and A8- why?? Seems like those hands are ahead there and we're missing a lot of value by checking because there are a lot of hands that can call us. 
The concept is what i call "no equitable advantage," and happens ~somewhat frequently with marginal 1 pairs. AA is not a marginal 1 pair and often in a class of its own. 2pair is obviously not 1 pair.

 Have you ever learned something from a student? 

I learn all the time from students. Esp. ones that ask good questions.

 You said you have some extraornidary ideas about bankroll requirements/management, care to elaborate? 

I hope I never used the word extraordinary, because I dont think my ideas are too revolutionary or whatnot. But basically, if you dont rely on poker to feed yourself or whatnot (which is most people, esp. in SSNL) either bc you work or are a student, there is no shame is "blowing" your BR. if people depend on you, that is a different story. Any case, because of this, you should play whatever the highest limits you feel comfortable with: What I mean by that, is you evaluate a decision based on EV, not money. I also think various suggestions such as "move up with X buyins," is somewhat hogwash. You dont know what you can or cannot beat until you try!

 Rank this skills:
a) Hand reading, b) betting ability, c) extracting value, d) Position e) hand strength f)bluffing g)studying (2+2, books, etc ) h) bankroll management 

Alot of those things you say are one in the same. I initially always believed it was hand reading, but I see alot of people (clients, actually) who hand read VERY well but continue to play sub optimally IN SPITE of this. What I mean is they are able to formulate "more perfect information" then their opponents, but they don't utilize that information to result in the better action. I'm starting to think understanding how to utilize that information is more important then gathering it.

 What board are you most likely to cbet OOP against an unknown holding AJo ( say someone limped from the CO, you raise to 5BB and he calls ) and why
a) K85r b) 5h6h10s c) JcQh10h 

I'd bet all 3 unless I knew more about my opponent, I might check fold b, but I dont see myself doing that too often.

 did you really have JJ that big pot we played together at turning stone? if you remember action, what do you think of my riv bet with KT on the xTh9hxAh board ? 

Swear on my life I had JJ. I think your river bet was weird, and to be honest, I made an uncharacteristic move on the river. My thoughts at the time were "this is a good flop rawr I want to be all in" to "ok I think gabe will fire a 2nd barrel it's button vs blinds and we're not so deep that I need to protect my hand" to "oh [censored] an ace hit and he checked maybe he actually hit it and oh wow I do have a heart so the best play by a mile is to check and decide but mentally I'm callin a bet" to "oh he bet the river there is a chance he has SOMETHING and I think that something COULD be better then MY something" so I just shoved. (but you were getting a very good price)

I still can't decide if I like the push from a bluff standpoint... calling (my norm) is likely better, but you mucked instantly that I'm starting to think you really would've mucked an ace that quickly too, since how can it be a fold w/ a ten and a call with an ace, you know? Then again in the heat of battle sometimes peopel don't think like that, and truly an ace IS a call and a ten IS a fold, even though the smallest % of %s people are shoving JJ-KK as a bluff.

 Are you still coaching?
Rates?
Would it be worth it for a 100nl player? (I mean, obviously the lesson would be worth it... but if I only have a 30bi roll, is it worth it then?) 

Yes, I'm coaching, I coach more then I play I think. I charge 200$/session. Is it worth it? Well, on a 3k bankroll I hope you'd be playing alot, or else, no, it would not. But otherwise yes, it would.