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Old 06-24-2007, 12:51 PM
Mike Haven Mike Haven is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Zoo, ATF, EB, etc
Posts: 7,043
Default Person to person transfers. [OP is a \"MUST read\", or be scammed!]

NB: I maintain an "alleged scammers list" in this thread and repost it every few days. Always look back a few pages to see the latest updated list to see the names of the alleged scammers that we know about. (Latest update.)

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This is the only thread in this forum in which you may ask for p2p transfers. (The previous thread has been locked; but it will still be worth scan-reading the last month or so's posts if you are considering a p2p transfer.)

In fact, Twoplustwo would prefer that we didn't have such requests, but, to be realistic, they do appear in the forum from time to time, and therefore as long as they are kept in this one thread, which contains the "rules", warnings and disclaimers, most will not be locked or deleted, until further notice.

The thread is to be looked upon only as a convenience to players having funding difficulties, and profiteering or transfer-business posts which state, say, that people have "unlimited" amounts to transfer for a set vig will be deleted.

Transfers involving Paypal will be deleted.

All transfers are arranged entirely at the two parties' own risk. The two parties are responsible for investigating the creditworthiness and honesty of the other. My advice, among other precautions you should take, would be that you should obtain the other party's real life name, address and telephone number, in order that you have full details to give to the police if you are scammed. You should exchange full details of the proposed transfer by e-mail. You should transfer only in amounts that you are prepared to lose. Transfer in a number of small amounts if the total amount you need is more than you are prepared to risk losing. Google and Search the other person's Twoplustwo name, and their playing-names on the two pokersites involved. Ask in the thread for references, if you wish. Ask the other party to sit at a table with his bankroll in front of him. Etc, etc. It seems likely but not definite that most scammers are newer posters.

Do not give your AIM address out in the thread. The criminals that are trying to scam you will contact you and lie that they are well-known posters here. Always make them contact through the PM system, at least very early in your negotiations.

The thieves will edit copies of e-mails they say they have received from the poker-sites. Perhaps better are screenshots if you are basing your actions on their content, but even screenshots can be faked.

If you are scammed, inform and warn others via a post in this thread, as soon as possible. Give the pokersites full details as soon as possible. It is highly likely that they won't be able to take any action to save your money, (as they only have your word against his that he didn't keep his part of the deal), but at least they should note the alleged scam and possibly disallow future transfers to his account in an attempt to protect other customers of theirs.

You must accept that Twoplustwo will take little or no action against alleged scammers, (again, they have no proof that the alleged scam has actually occurred), including possibly not even banning them, so you should not think that just because someone still has an active account in the forums they are not as likely to scam you as any other anonymous stranger on the internet. If you are scammed, you must not post personal details of the alleged scammer in the forums.

Be careful.

"Let the buyer beware."

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Edit/MH: Here is a copy of an excellent advice post made by Suited76 on the 12th September:

I don't have a lot of posts here because I don't think many of you could benefit from my shoddy poker advice. I am, however, a 35 year old detail-oriented OCD patient so I'm going to offer some lengthy advice on trading.

Some of this is posted in the OP but I think it's worth saying again. I'm a little worried about the attempt to basically come up with some formula that says if posts=Y + past trading history=X then trade away. I think people get a little lost because poker funds sometime seem like fake E-money, but people are sending hundreds\thousands of dollars to strangers. Some common sense is in order.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Do pay attention to registration date and post counts. These are important but they aren't the end all. Several scammers have run their post counts up very quickly.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Ask the trader to sit at a table with his bankroll. I don't think it's out of order to ask to see all of it. Even if you are just trading $100, if you see the person sit down with $2000 then you should feel a lot safer.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] If the person is a tournament player then ask for their screen names in advance. Check them on officialpokerrankings.com, thepokerdb.com, or sharkscope.com (if they are a sng player). Don't send $1000 to some guy who is an unprofitable $5 tournament player. If you see that the guy makes $2000 a month then he's probably not looking to scam you for $100.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Search for the personís screen name in this thread. See what people have said about him. Check for the amounts, who sent first, and where the money was coming/going. Be very careful about sending large amounts to some guy who has only sent first in his previous swaps.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Donít be afraid to ask for personal information. You donít have to get their SS#, but ask for their full name or maybe get them to send an email from their work account if they have one.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Donít rely on people soliciting you from an IM. Make them send you a PM so you can verify that you are dealing with the actual 2+2er.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Donít depend on screen shots or anything thatís been copied/pasted/forwarded into an email/IM. Screen shots of someoneís account balance can be easily altered. Just because youíve seen a transfer email pasted somewhere, that is by no means conclusive proof that your money is on its way.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Trade in increments if you feel thatís necessary. Only send large amounts if you feel VERY comfortable with your trading partner. The less you know about him, the smaller the increments should be.

Hopefully these are helpful, but it just comes down to doing your research. You donít have to do all of them, but the more of this information you can put together the safer your money will be. If you find someone being an ass about giving you information then find someone else to trade with.

IIRC, a few weeks ago I saw guy A (new reg date/low post count) posting that he needed money moved from Stars to FT. A little later guy B posts the same thing needing FT money in exchange for Stars. Later, guy A posts that he can help out guy B HOURS AFTER SAYING THAT HE NEEDED FULL TILT MONEY. I thought to myself that I hope guy B isnít falling for that only to log on a few hours later to see guy B posting how heís been scammed.

Decide what you are comfortable with and do the appropriate amount of research. If you donít find an acceptable trading partner then bite the bullet and seek out one of our well-known traders who will help you for a fee. Iíd prefer that our trades benefit both parties and foster a better community, but paying the vig is a LOT better than getting your money stolen.

Lastly, after you make a successful trade please come back to the forums and make a post letting folks know. I also think itís a good idea to put complete information in the post. Who sent first, how much was sent, in what increments, and on what sites. This will help all of us make safer decisions in the future.

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