[One Outer]

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Great stuff, everyone.

Some questions.

Is there a simple resource that should tell me what invoice is for a Matrix?

The dealership told me yesterday that their "break-even" price was $18,515 (the sticker is $20,060). I wish I knew if that were truly their break-even.

My two current offers (which should improve today):

1) $400 trade for my falling-apart 1998 Dodge Neon with 136k miles, additional $1300 off, total price of $18,315. Dealer tells me that this would be selling it at "$200 above break-even." Warranty is standard 5-year, 60k on power train.

2) $500 trade; $900 off for a total of $18,660. Lifetime warranty on power train, but warranty seems designed to be voided.

Both dealers have said, "We could re-evaluate the trade value."

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I kind of suspected that that would be the case with the Matrix, given that the Vibe is the same vehicle. Don't expect to do any of this with any other Toyota model.

The price they're giving you is legit. I'd be shocked if that were more than $400 over invoice. And that would about be their breakeven point. As a general rule, competition is such that when it comes to new cars the salesman is going to be completely up front with you about price (ask him to show you the invoice- he'll do it). The things you really need to pay attention to in a new car transaction are the trade allowance and the fine print back in finance.

Especially the trade. I made thousands off stepping on trades when I sold cars. For instance, say the used car manager appraises your Neon at $800. If it were me I would show you $400 because the difference between what I give you on paper and the appraisal gets rolled into the profit on the deal. And commissions where I worked went into holdback. So say the holdback is $800 (about right for this price), they're selling it for $200 over invoice, so we have $1000 "profit" the salesman is getting paid on. Where I worked we got 25% base. So if he steps on your trade he has added $400 dollars to his deal, so instead of getting $250 he now gets $350. See?

I can remember one deal where this guy was trading in an Audi special edition A4 he had owned for only four months. He had no idea how special his car was and I could tell that he had only researched the value of an ordinary A4. I managed to step on his wholesale value by $3000. That was an extra $750 for me. That's pure profit, like selling stolen merchandise or pot you grew yourself, but legal and with a lot less work. The best part was now that we owned it for way less than it was worth I bought it myself for only $500 over what we paid for it. I still drive it.

They can do better on your trade. That's a crappy car, but they will turn around and wholesale it for $1000 or so. Don't try and take all of that wholesale money away from them, but you should be trying to get between $600-800 for the Neon.

You're way better off letting the dealer take care of the trade for you. Provided you don't let them steal it, you come out way ahead in time, aggravation and money (remember, you have to pay the state sales tax when you sell your car!) when you trade it in.