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Old 11-13-2007, 05:41 AM
23Suited 23Suited is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Default Re: Stars 50K Guaranteed - The Dreaded Min Raise

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I never stated I thought 3-betting for information was a good play... however I do believe that 3-betting for value is the best option available to you (the fact that you force your opponent to give away information by taking this line just adds further value to it)...

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Prior, I was only making general observations about some of the responses that were being given from all posters, perhaps you included. I certainly don't intend to project opinions onto anyone. <font color="blue"> Fine with me... Project away... thats kind of the point of these forums... however projecting your opinions in order to help better the understanding of the game for other forum members isnt the problem... its getting people to give serious thought to those opinions that seems to be difficult nowadays... </font>

Addressing specifically your response... <font color="blue"> Just going to give you my thoughts on each of the points below </font>

Valuable information as a further benefit: We already have valuable information....villian is very loose and very passive pre-flop....AND calls all raises. <font color="blue"> I still dont think we can gather any useful information from this other then that your opponent is rather bad here... Ill elaborate AGAIN on this later </font>

This makes raising bad for several reasons.

1.) If hero would need to "tread carefully postflop because if you are not an experienced post flop player then you will probably get yourself into trouble far more often then you would like", then how is bloating the pot to 9 or 10x a good idea? Your raise will not take the pot down. <font color="blue"> You dont need to take down the pot... its a value bet... you want more money in the pot because you have the best hand more often then not... in other words your hand destroys his range of hands... IMO</font>

Its not just the times he pushes with whatever his pushing range is, its all the times that he will call with his calling range, which is everything. Your positional advantage is completely negated by the fact that villians stack is roughly the size of the pot. Now you risk folding the best hand in a big pot as opposed to a small pot. <font color="blue"> I'll have to go back in check but if I remember the hand correctly villian has 5.5Kish and you have him covered... raising to 1.2K doesnt quite bloat the pot enough to say villians stack is the size of the pot... besides... as I will elaborate on below... YOU control the betting against this kind of player... VALUE TOWN is your best friend... against a loose calling station </font>

QT2 flop and villian pushes into you? <font color="blue"> Um... this never happens... if you read up you will realize that you already said this yourself... this guy is just checking and calling... for the most part you decide how much you are playing this pot for post flop... </font>
AK4 flop and villian checks to you? <font color="blue"> Check behind because C-betting is bad against a calling station(an example of this is shown in the hand HERO posted just above your post on page 3... where villian limp calls like ~20% of his stack pre from a HERO who hasnt gotten out of hand with just A3o... he hits his A... and HERO decides to c-bet)... What I find most interesting though about that hand is that had villian mini-raise in that rather then limped... and that was the hand he posted... I doubt there would have been any discussion as to re-raiseing for value being the best play... while it plays nearly the same side by side with JJ against this villian when he raises and when he shoves... your reaction will be nearly the same (you lose one overcard that you may have to worry about post flop I suppose because you are delighted when a Q comes and you have QQ because you have flopped a set... this is probably not important though because at 50% he probably isnt limping/mini-raising Qx offsuit from EP... so its not likely to change much)... Anyways, if he has an A or a K in this made up flop situation then he will either bet very small on the turn and/or river or he will just check it down... and judging from the other hand I think it is likely he will check it down... though occasionally you see these guys do the small bet thing once if no1 else is showing interest in the pot and they actually have something like TPWK or better (this has no real relevance against value betting preflop)... this is definatly an unfortunate board for you... about the only thing worse would be AKQ since villian seems to like playing big cards... honestly because I wasnt at the table I dont have any more insight into how you would procede in this spot... however I certainly would If I was in villians seat... impossible not to be able to put together a huge post flop line if this guy is really limp calling into 50% of flops </font>

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any comments I made previously about AA and KK were made in regards to the times your opponent 4-bets you all in... If you believe that is his entire range for the 4-bet a fold in that spot would be rather obvious...

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2.) This is what we dont have a read on. We have no clue what his 4-bet range is???? How do you know TT is not the nuts to him? Everyone pushes AK/QQ. We have no basis for the belief that his 4 bet all-in range is KK-AA. <font color="blue"> I can guarantee you that this guy doesnt play TT as the nuts even with just by the limited information I have right now... doesnt follow any pschology/mindset of this type of player in any way... I dont disgaree with the rest of that... he should be 4-betting all in with QQ+/AK... which you are quite a bit behind that range... precisely why I think value raising his mini-raise from EP preflop has that hidden value of information because your rather predictable opponent will call with hands that dont beat yours and shove hands that do beat you... so... folding if he shoves while playing your hand for value post flop when he calls is the best you can handle this type of player... VALUE TOWN him... as far as the KK+ thing goes... since this is his first raise this may be your worst case scenario... villian playing goofy from EP with the nuts or close to it... usually this is a SUPER-PASSIVE player and I dont think we can define his range to that... however it is one of the possibilities which I tried to bring up in my 4 problems section earlier... under the nuts or bluff comment...</font>

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I mean Jarid what are you re-raising with here... do you smooth call pre with AK???... is your raising range QQ+... or are you smooth calling all of the hands which likely have value against his range...

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I rerise QQ+ and AK and call with a myriad of other hands aginst this specific player. <font color="blue"> Kinda backwards... against this specific player you can still re-raise that range because it has great value and your opponent is highly likely to call and I think there are other hands which are certainly good for value to re-raise (such as the JJ that every1 seems to disagree with me on) but playing SCs isnt the greatest approach against this type of player because he isnt really going to bet (not certain that you are saying you would play them against him just felt I needed to say this in case it is in your myriad of hands... pure hand values are much more important and this type of player is normally busted from a tournament when you either hit a big hand or bludgin him to death over a sequence of hands when you have the bigger kicker... SPPs present the same problem as SCs against this type of villian because it is difficult to tell when he has hit his overcard or started with a slightly better PP... this is mostly what I am refering to when I say calling against this player is bad because there is just no reason to play guessing games when this villian is so predictable... Aggression does not work versus a calling station... just playing tight straight forward with your hands will earn you the most chips here</font>

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but isnt this exploitable on your part...

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I guess, but only if villian decides "I'm not gonna raise any hands all tournament and then spring to life just at the right time to make Jarid play sub-optimally with the best hand". <font color="blue"> lol... anyways a random example of the exploitation of calling would be on a 4 or 5 card low board where you attempt to get in 2 streets of value because this will cost you more then if you were to raise pre-flop and you will occasionally find him holding a bigger PP which you did not force him to define preflop</font>

Seriously, against players with normal or higher raising frequencies, I totally re-raise this. Esepcially if they mix up 3xs with min raises, because min raises usually mean trashier or weaker hands, or hands people are trying to feign strength with. Or, if their standard raise is a min raise and they raise frequently etc..etc...
But here, with the information at hand, calling seems super standard to me. Based on 1 and 2 above, raising presents big time -EV situations. <font color="blue"> this still comes down to the range with which villian is doing this... I think it is SUPER WIDE and most of you think it is VERY NITTY... we just disagree... the only way I could possibly change my mind is if I was at the table I think... So I still like raise to 1200... Doyle if you dont mind repost the next stage of the hand... unless this discussion about whether to call or re-raise was all you were curious about with this hand... because I think at this point both sides have expressed thier opinions as to why they re-pop or why they smooth call pre here... </font>

Finally, if you want to raise for value, I think calling villians push is better than folding to villian's push based on #2 above. <font color="blue"> I think you hit the nail on the head with his 4-betting range earlier... minus your TT comment I mean... so this would be a huge mistake calling his shove if the best case you could be in is racing against AK... because the slightly larger part of the time you will be up agaisnt QQ+... which has you destroyed ~4-1 (the numbers are as follows... there are 34 ways to make [AK, QQ+] 16/34 are AK while 6/34 ways to make each of the other 3 PPs in that range... meaning 8/17 or roughly 47% of the time villian shoves you will be a slight favorite to win the hand... however about 17.6% of the time he has each of the individual pairs you are up against in this range or the remaining 53% if you prefer... which you are about an 80-20 dog against... you can always just stove this if you want exact #s put im certain folding is right to a shove based on the info provided by HERO against this perticular villian... </font>
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