[23Suited]

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[...]if you have the software stove JJ against TT+, AQ, and AK... [...] ... however I do believe that 3-betting for value is the best option available to you (the fact that you force your opponent to give away information by taking this line just adds further value to it)...
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Here´s the problem: if Villains raising range from EP actually would be TT+,AQ+, do you really think he limped all the other hands before (according to OP 50% - from any position) with crap only? Why did he never raise ATo from the Button, AJ from Hijack, KQ from middle position, 66+ from anywhere? Did he just not have those hands? I doubt that ...

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> Curious as to why you would bother to bring this up... this point is actually one against your cause... This means that it is higly likely that the villian in this hand has already had a hand within the range of the hands we are discussing probably quite a bit more then once... regardless of his position he probably limped or called a raise with it... for him to open mini-raise at all suggests a shift in gears IMO... not that surprising as he cant play this style for an entire tournament... the blinds recently went to 100/200 right... and the antes drop on the next level then because I believe this is a PS tourney... not a bad time to change gears and drop your passive game is it???... </font>

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As jarid said - OP provided us a read - unlike tons of other hands discussed here. Why do you cast doubts on this? OP said, he played a while with him ... why not take Villain as what OP described him - an extremely loose-passive player and judge the hand on the base of exactly this information? And then you tell me again that you are ahead of his range ...

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> You arent... assuming OP has the correct read here then jarid isnt even being conservative enough... a truly loose passive player wont mini-raise TT-JJ, or AQ from EP IMO because he will feel he doesnt hit enough on the flop and has to give up too often... so his actualy range would then be QQ+, AK+... which I dont need stove to tell if Im behind that range... but there are 4 problems I have with this...

1. Is that I have never seen any1 play anything remotely close to this with anything resembling success... you cant win in the long run just letting the cards fall as they may and folding that often to any kind of aggression (or the other side of this which is to be a calling station with any kind of made 1 pair hand post flop)... this kind of lack of poker concepts and knowledge leads me to believe there are leaks all over the rest of his game...

2. I dont think his mini-raise here is consistant with the information that we have gathered so far... so I prefer to disgard this information and assign a range much closer in similiarity to what the original poster assigned after the OPs post... one that fits with a normal mini-raiser which includes alot of SPPs and draw hands... which you are way ahead of...

3. I would be willing to assign MPPs 99-JJ as hands I will occasionally see this type of passive player play this way because he feels that they NEVER win for him... his complaint is his own fault because he overvalues these hands postflop he finally got a good starting hand and does not want to surrender it... he only limps so he does not have the ability to thin the field preflop with a value bet (meaning these hands have to hit the flop very hard to be the best hand alot of the time against what would normally be a minimum of 3 other players in all likelyhood... these scary cards are player dependant... some feel AK never hits the A or K and they get attached to it for its strong starting hand value but for the most part MPPs are the most common I see people play as a scary hand where they play it out of the ordinary to protect it against multiple opponents and to get folds because they really dont want a call... basically what I am saying is that this out of the ordinary play if the villian in this hand is truly loose-passive certainly means something... and something very specific but does not necesarily mean I will be respecting a player who clearly has fundamental flaws in his game enough to just assign QQ+, AK like I would if he is a "Good" Loose-Passive player (I'm assuming that such a thing even exists)

4. most of the time when someone who is normally very predictable plays a hand out of the ordinary it is either the nuts or a bluff (in this case it would be a semi-bluff in all likelyhood)... </font>

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And one last note:

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... if you have the software stove JJ against TT+, AQ, and AK... and come back with the results...

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Interesting ... did YOU check the results yourself before making this announcement?

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> Nope, I dont have stove on my laptop... I did the math in my head fairly quickly and it came out close... I wasnt certain so I guessed... plus I figure if I instigated it as a challenge Id be much more likely to get someone to actually run the numbers... so thanks... anyways if the villians actual range here is TT+, AQ, and AK... then the best +EV play would be too smooth call this preflop mini-raise... with re-raiseing to 1200 being slightly -EV (see the stove numbers below for how -EV it actually is)... the problem is that is WAAAAAYYYY to tight for this scenario and Im just not gonna change my mind unless I meet the guy or I was in OP seat myself MAYBE... if you really have played this guy through the first 100-150 hands of this tourney or W/E you are at right now and this is his first raise... and it is a very unusual mini-raise... so he really is this passive player just as part of his natural instincts... and you can honestly tell me that you think he is good... then I guess I am wrong this one time... but I believe the problem is that your range is wrong (based on a read that doesnt apply very well to an unorthadox play by this villian) and doesnt give you the oppurtunity to make the right assumptions after you make your initial views on the situation... In fact this reminds me alot of players who arent willing to call overshoves against villians in the early stages of a donkament where the guy is shoving all kinds of garbage in his range... just because it is a big bet and its early in a tournament... thats just silly... make the best play... take your profits from the hand... and move on to the next... I think I need to incorporaate this into my play somehow with this many people actually reacting this poorly to it (and forum members are generally the thinking players... I am amazed that more of you cant get past the fact that he mini-raises in EP here... you are all holding your mouse over the fold button ready to fold at villians will... the occasional mini-raise is the equivalent to POKER GOLD </font>

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.124% 52.08% 01.04% 304987776 6112398.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 46.876% 45.83% 01.04% 268395396 6112398.00 { JJ }