[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know in a tourney that the rules state an all in hand must be tabled. Is this rule also in effect for cash games?

So I'm still thinking if this was cash Adolf's hand should be declared dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Adolf instantly throws his J8 face up in the middle of the table, gestures to the pot and says 'take it'."

You mean, tabling it like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please show me a rule or rules that state a players cards if turned face up, in a cash game, on the river, are live? I can't find it. I can find this under Dead Hands, You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet). It doesn't say your cards have to land face down. It doesn't say they need to land in, on or near the muck pile.

In the Showdown section we have this... A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot. But as we've discussed previously in this forum if the original bettor decides to just fold (and you can bet the river, get called and just fold, instead of showing your hand) then there is no "showdown" and most in this forum agreed there would no requirement on the only player left with cards to show.

I cannot find any rule that states in a cash game an all in hand must be shown either.

So we have a situation where a player throws away his cards and makes a statement conceeding the pot. This action causes his opponent to believe he has won and he turns his hand face up. I believe that, in a cash game, Adolfs actions should be construed as a fold.

But some are saying because his cards are face up, no matter what he intended, his hand is live.

My interpretation of the the cards speak rule is to the extent of what the hand is, not to what action the player holding them is taking. That is cards don't fold, call or raise, players do. Cards only override a players verbal declaration about hand ranking.

I'm not trying to be an obstinate ass. I agree tournament rules state that an all in hand must be tabled and therefore Adolf cannot fold. No matter what he says. But I think it's different for a cash game.

I have a good deal of respect for you guys (well, some of you) as you tend to always get it right. So feel free to point out all the flaws in my reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your question.

It is true that the rules don't properly define a tabled hand versus a mucked one. So the very short answer is that we have to refer to common practice here. There is some level of detail that is simply impractical to get into in the rules. So practice tells us that simply throwing our cards in a forward motion at showdown, is not a muck, they must also be face down. By common practice, many players who fully intend to showdown the hand, toss their cards face up towards the middle, often calling out their hand as well. In fact this throwing forward of the cards is the rule, rather than the exception in every live game I've ever played in, and every game I've seen on TV. Very few players I know hold onto their cards at showdown unless they don't intend to show and are planning on mucking. Thus the mere forward throw of the cards can't be a muck. (In fact, I think you agree, with this except for the words "Take it,". But "take it" or other words of concession, are also meaningless statements, as there is no such action in poker). Thus the issue here is really knowing the "cards speak" rule.

But I think we can get there, at least by implication, by without depending wholly upon common practice.

First, the definition of muck from Robert's Rules: MUCK: (1) The pile of discards gathered facedown in the center of the table by the dealer. (2) To discard a hand.

# 2 doesn't help much, since discarding a hand is exactly what we are trying to define, but #1, at least gives us some support that mucking involves face down cards.

At showdown: 4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.

Which supports the idea that a hand is live until it hits the muck. (at least at showdown, where, remember there is no such actions as fold, so a verbal declaration of fold wouldn't apply)

Also: "To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not." Obvously that's not difinitive, because it could simply mean that if you don't show you can't win, not necessarily that showing means you haven't mucked, but again, its supportive of the idea that cards face up are in play for the pot. Particularly in connjuction with:

"Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. "


I think that's good enough although, as you say, there is no rule directly telling us that hands tossed face up have been "tabled."

So I'll turn your question around. When your hand has been turned face up at showdown, where in the rules does it say that the words I concede, or take it, or whatever, kills your hand? Particularly in the face of the "Cards Speak" rule?