[Acevader]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are not willing to stack off on the turn (which is the same as stacking off on the river), then I don't think you should bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I am willing to stack off on the turn. If he c/r me again then I would reluctantly call. I have seen players make that play from time to time with a hand such as 1010 or JJ on this board. They panic that the flop raise was called and check to see what hero does. I then bet which commits them to the pot so they decide there and then whether they want to play for stacks with 1010-JJ. If they conclude they are happy to play they just get it in now so they can't doubt themselves if an ace or king hits the river. For this reason I'd reluctantly stack off on the turn after I've bet.

However, once they have called the turn bet and led the river they have taken a completely different line and one that, IMHO, provides me with additional information. 1010-JJ never takes this line IMHO because the river was as safe as they come. Therefore if he bets 1010-JJ he only gets called if tied or beat but crucially takes away any opportunity for hero to bet/bluff a lesser/non hand. The correct play at this river with 1010-JJ would be to check-call as a timid hero might even check behind with a higher pair. To lead the river when he clearly has no fold equity has to be for value and therefore has to have QQ beat. A check raise by him on the turn is usually going to be a similar strength hand (i.e. one that beats QQ) but may also be 1010-JJ just 'getting them in now'. For that reason calling a c/r AI on turn is different to calling a push.

I expect you'll come back and say 1010-JJ never c/r this turn. FWIW I consider myself a reasonable player and I do that sometimes. Recently I raised AK and against a tight opponent took an Axx wet flop. I led villain raised and I called. The river bricked the draws so I was really only beat by sets or a silly two pair. I didn't plan the hand to well and checked to villain who bet committing himself. I thought for a bit and concluded that he'd have to show me a set and so I put my money in there and then so that even if a draw hit the river I'd not bottle it. I don't view this as a value c/r as such (although some lesser hands may call) but rather an 'administrative c/r' (i.e. the stacks are going in so lets do it now). Unbelievably villain folded AK (and I believe him) because he figured I'd never come over the top of his commitment bet with anything less than AK. LOL, an added bonus I never expected from taking this line.

I'm expressing myself so badly here. I hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say and why I think committing on this turn is different to committing on this river. Finally, on the turn you still have one shot at two outs - clutching at straws but it all helps.