[WarDekar]

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i think if people don't want to shove, that checking this river would be quite an absurd leak. how could bet/folding ever have a worse expectation vs his range(s)?

in fact, if someone good at math(read:mikej) could come in here and figure out how often he needs to call a shove vs how often he needs to call 4500 w/ qx to make the latter more profitable, i would not be surprised if because he folds a queen like always to our shove - and that bet/folding X amount of chips would be better than a shove by a long shot.

as i said in my first post however, i think the turn bet should be bigger to make the river shove more natural. kindv hard to figure out how to size bets perfectly ahead of time w/o the #'s in front of our faces tho. =[

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This is certainly true and why I said in my 2nd post, I guess betting HAS to be better because if he shoves you know you're beat.

I actually do this sometimes and it looks like I'm a huge donk to the rest of the table, I'm sure. This could be a good thing too, though.

I bet if I looked over my HHs I could find a few spots where I bet/folded small thinking he has to call with anything decent he had to begin with, but he certainly won't shove, and I can fold to the shove.

It sucks to do it but checking behind is losing value and a leak for sure, even if you look like a huge [censored] moron bet/folding (which as I said can certainly be a good thing, as well).


EDIT: Also, I've started liking to do a similar thing with min or mini-raising rivers for value.