[pvn]

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That's not what the words mean. It's not a matter of opinon. What either of us think doesn't really matter.

[/ QUOTE ] In this area it does matter. For we are talking about subjective beliefs, and whether or not something "really is true" will have little effect on what extremist ideologues actually believe. So the opposite of what you claim is true here: what is objectively true actually has little relevance here.

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You can show me why a man who calls himself a government agent is morally different to a man who calls himself a bartender to the extent where one can take money under the threat of force and one cannot.

[/ QUOTE ] Now you are asking for a normative argument...something which itself is unprovable; notice the term "show" here. Nobody can prove this; all normative arguments rest on questionable assumptions/premises that one can refuse to believe without inconsistency or lack of logic.

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Exactly. Which is why voluntary agreement is the only thing that can be legitimate.

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As an example, as long as you continue to believe that intentions trump consequences nothing can be done in this area.

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Not true. Those of you who believe that the ends justify the means can all get together and voluntarily collectivize your decisions. There's no reason you have to force those who don't want to go along with your utopian dream plan (do you see what I did there?) to participate in it or subsidize it.