[John Kilduff]

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The gas station attendant asked if you wanted your oil checked, and always squeegeed your windshield for free, too, while the tank was filling up.

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This would still be the case if the price of labor wasn't artificially high.

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But why don't we see as stiff an opposition to the welfare state as we do to immigration??

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Good question, but what does it matter?

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Because two wrongs don't make a right, and I believe the outcome for the economy as a whole would be much more positive after the elimination of the welfare state than after the elimination of the freedom to hire those who want to work at a wage they're willing to work for.

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plus immigrants depress their wages even if immigrants don't depress yours.

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Their wages and mine are irrelevant to a discussion about the economy as a whole. Looking at the effects of a policy on certain individuals while disregarding the effects on everyone else is the root of every economic fallacy ever known to man.

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There is also something to be said for cultural affinity. Most people prefer being around people who are like them in as many ways as possible. Many Americans also realize that many immigrants aren't here to assimilate and they probably resent that.

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I'm sure they resent the fact I won't cut my hair and put on a collared shirt too, but should I be deported for it?

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Look, I'm not arguing that the welfare state (and taxes to pay for it) shouldn't be curtailed. I pretty much agree on with you on that, I think. But here I'm discussing immigration, and since the welfare state isn't going to be drastically curtailed anytime soon, why not discuss the effects of immigration?

I also think my point that more immigrants = more political pressure for the welfare state, is true. If you want to get rid of the welfare state (a major hope and unlikely undertaking), you'd stand a better chance of getting rid of it with fewer immigrants who vote than with more immigrants who vote. Low-skilled/unskilled persons tend to vote in favor of social services, and immigrants tend strongly to vote Democrat. So if you want to reduce government, the welfare state and taxes, allowing even greater numbers of immigrants would be counterproductive to your cause.

It's a fine hypothetical to consider what immigration might be like today, if there were no welfare state, but since there IS a welfare state, how about discussing immigration under the actual current conditions, conditions that don't appear likely to change greatly anytime soon? That's how I'm trying to discuss the matter.

I also think you're trying to reduce the issue to a purely economic matter, and I disagree with that approach, since I think immigration is about, and impacts, more than just economics.