[wacki]

Ok lets try to find something we can agree on. Would you agree that Alexander Hamilton, a man that signed the original constitution, believes it is (or at least should be) a natural and individual right?

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
-- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28


Now to pin down the conversation to a manageable size. Madison said:

Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,

Now in order to understand this statement it would be prudent to analyze the firearm laws of other European countries and assume that Madison believes American gun laws are far more relaxed. Would you disagree or agree with this simple statement?



Also regarding Madison's statement on RKBA:
And it is not certain that with this aid alone, they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the <u>additional</u> advantages of local governments chosen by themselves.... it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround it.

This phrase is something that no sane person would disagree with. A revolting army attempting to overthrow a tyrannical government would greatly benefit another it from some form of government help. That help can come from another nation, state governments or a simple small town council that's willing to feed local guerrilla troops. That statement of Madison's you quoted is something I agree with in full. Since I agree with this statement in full your claim that Madison's statement proves that the 2A is an not an individual right is the same as claiming I do not believe the 2A is an individual right. And that simply is not the case. And since you seem to fixate on grammatical specifics I would like to point out that he claims government direction of the militia is an "additional" meaning which is equivalent to separate advantage. This "additional" advantage, using his words, is merely something that increases the success rate of the militia from "not certain" to "affirmed with the greatest assurance".

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All this said, I don't really care what the original meaning of the 2nd amendment was. Because the world has changed and the framers clearly intended that the Constitution should change with it. Both through amendments and through interpretation. But if one wants to take an originalist approach, the collective, civic right to bear arms is clearly what was meant by the 2nd amendment, not an individual's right to have weapons for personal use.

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Well you've made it clear in the past that you don't care what the intent of the founding fathers was. A state of mind that carks me but whatever, this country is still free enough to allow people to have their own opinions. But if you are going to have an opinion on what the "originalist approach" is and criticize people who deviate from that philosophy then I hope I don't need to tell you that it is pretty important that do you know what the intent of our founding fathers was. But I suspect I'm simply jumping on you for not wording your posts carefully.

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Maybe we should argue the case in front of SCOTUS.

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That would be fun as well as didactic. I'm sure you would be a formidable opponent. Unfortunately lack of formal training would more than likely make the trial look like the beginning of My Cousin Vinny. :-D