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Old 10-20-2007, 05:39 PM
LAZRUS LAZRUS is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3
Default Re: In light of the AP scandal, do you think such cheating is commplace?

the most recent online poker scandal
just serves to reinforce some pertinent facts
that have been with the game of poker
and quite possibly all of gambling forever.

If the stakes are high enough,
and if it is possible,
cheating CAN and WILL occur…

Of course, this applies online—
But also to brick and mortar card rooms
plush casinos and back alley crap games

If you gamble online or off,
without a firm grasp of this fact
of human history and perhaps human nature,
You are asking for trouble…

Incomplete information?

Obviously, to run a fair and straight poker game online,
you NEED to know what cards are dealt to every player on every hand
and you would HAVE to SAVE all this information for your own verification
of the hand results, winners and losers, stacks, etc…
and all this data-information WOULD and WILL be available,
as it is happening/generated, but to who?
Systems operators and administrators, yes,
so called ‘super’ account holders, yes,
obviously, if you own the company,
or are one of the chief
executive, technical, or financial officers,
could such information be withheld from you?
And of course, such information as 'all the hands of all players'
would be oh so lucratively useful to anyone in the games themselves.

Do you believe the homily
Everyone has their price?

Now I am afraid I don’t
really see a solution to all this,
and I am very sure it applies
not just to AP but to ALL the online poker and gaming sites
This is a clear and fundamental structural flaw of the online gaming world--the players must trust those who run the games--and while this may indeed be a rare incident at AP, the opportunities for cheating are inherent in the systems design.
And this is just one example of one way to cheat…insider collusion…

I won’t discuss too much
the ever increasing likelihood and existence
of the multiple account holders,
teams, or just friends, slow playing each other,
chip dumping, collusion, "prop" or 'house' players,
and other forms of ‘gaming’ the system.
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that any two (or more) players
Working together via instant message, or telephone,
or by pre-arranged codes at a B&M
gives them a huge advantage in any game.

They are a fact-
They exist in the ‘real’ card rooms and casinos.
--Well, O.K. the multiple accounts don’t really apply….
But to what extent and degree?
And who would even know this?
Just the conspirators themselves…
And the ones who are caught…

Almost certainly the higher the amounts wagered
creates a greater incentive for
a larger percentage of cheating incidents occurring.
And just as most “teams” wouldn’t try to ‘take down’
a 3/6 limit table at the casino or
a freeroll online
doesn’t mean it can’t be done,
it just means that the same such efforts
are rewarded greater elsewhere
perhaps for practice..
Do teams ever practice?

And I am sure that the typical
“Isolated incident-nothing to worry about-you can trust us”
response that is even now
being repeated everywhere
by pundits and spokespersons
and experts and other “uninterested parties”
will more than likely work
its soothing magic before too long
and it will soon be back to business as usual
but the truth is that
some forms of cheating may be
all but impossible to prevent,
let alone detect…especially online

I am sure the “industry” wishes that whoever
Released these histories and related information
won’t do it ever again
But I think this sort of thing—
honesty—
should generally be lauded and encouraged
whoever blew this whistle at AP deserves a big fat reward

-ok but not at the table—

to really engage and enlist my trust,
this sort of transparency—the availability
of complete hand histories including observers and their ip addresses,
to everyone, especially the players themselves, must be mandatory.
after the fact of course…
somehow I doubt that this will occur

So what to do?

Ever since I funded my 1st online account,
because I felt the plausibility of fairness
may and might be remote at all but the lowest stakes,
I have never been a large depositor of funds
into overseas accounts of unknown origin and uncertain ownership.
This, to me, is just common sense.
Nor have I played at the higher stakes or huge prize pool tournaments--
save for the occasional satellite win—
Sure, I buy in for small stakes forum stuff,
and the occasional low limit rings, mtts and sits.
Sometimes I have won, but most I have not…
And sometimes I have gone broke and reloaded but
I would never willingly
risk financial ruin online or in a casino….but that is just me…
I can’t really say I personally have been cheated.
But the real kicker is –I can’t prove that I haven’t…
Just like the sites can’t prove all or even any of their games are square….


the near constant shilling of the online poker world
and other not uninterested parties,
which will no doubt increase exponentially after all this,
and the resultant affiliate driven “skin explosion” that can only
maximize the risk I am playing the same person in two seats
won’t persuade me now, and I am not sure
how I could ever be convinced
completely to ever deposit ANYWHERE again.
But because I love to play
I might…but not for a really good long while

For those of you who doubt
that there is cheating in poker-
Both online and off-
I recommend the sobering Richard Marcus book “Dirty Poker”
To those of you who wonder about the ‘friendliness’ of your local home game
I recommend the hilarious “How To Cheat Your Friends at Poker” by
Penn Jillette (yes of the illusionist duo/BS hosts) and Mickey D. Lynn
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