[Garland]

Hi DeathDonkey,

Long post coming back at you:

Warning: I’m going to be me making a lot of comments that might make you say “But you see his hole cards." That is very true. I’m gonna comment anyways. So here’s my very detailed rebuttal.

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First off, he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair, so against that range my two "overcards" to second pair are often in reasonable shape.

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False. I don’t know your guys’ history before this video, but your thinking is way off on this particular session. Some simple statistics on what Joe’s flop action OOP means. In the almost hour video:

(a) Joe flop check-raised you exactly four times.
In 3 of the 4 cases, he had top pair or better. Only in one case did he have worse than top pair and that was T7 on a 873 board. Translation: Respect his flop check-raise.

(b) Here’s what Joe’s flop donk means: 5 2nd pair, 2 bottom pair, 1 top pair, one flopped straight and 1 king high.

(c) Here’s what Joe’s flop check call means: 2 2nd pair, 2 bottom pair, 4 top pair, 1 straight draw and 1 air.

Yes, I get to see hole cards, but you could have inferred this from the frequency that he check-raised the flop. However, that “he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair” statement absolutely does apply to your flop check-raise playing style.

I kind of figured you were doing that "turn the top card into a deuce" deal playing heads up. I just thought you were overdoing it. I also think they were wrong spots to peel for scare cards which I’ll get to soon. I don't do it at all (probably because when my live opponents do it to me heads up/3-handed, they always have top pair).

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Second, it gives me the opportunity to take advantage of scary turn and river cards from time to time and steal some pots

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Here are the times I felt you made "marginal" peels along with what Joe actually had:

(1) JTs on 53K r (Joe had K5 and c/r)
(2) K7 on 29A (2 diamonds, you have K) (Joe had A3 and c/r)
(3) 97 on Q26 (2 diamonds, you have 7) (Joe had KQ and c/r)

Note: Joe has top pair or two pair each time he check-raised you here. I think you’re confusing your own play from Joes. You actually do check-raise with bottom/middle pair along with air and draws. So it’s Joe that actually owns the right to peel with two “overs” to 2nd pair as he did at 33:10 when you check-raised A64r when you held 58o and Joe held K9o and you check-raised out of position. You might want to adjust your read on Joe. He’s not getting out-of-line like you are.

In regards to taking advantage of scary turn and river cards, peeling in your 3 examples above doesn’t offer a ton of opportunities to shop for a scary turn/river because on those examples the flop was disjointed and in one case, rainbow. This would be far different than if the flop were 679 or something monotone for example. These kind of flops offers chances to make a play at Joe given the right turn or river card regardless of what two cards you hold.

I think calling the c/r in at least 2 of those three situations above is just throwing away money.

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I think I played the KT clubs hand really really well.

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Obviously the flop could have helped him too, that’s true. I’m just a big fan of semi-bluffing. He could release a small pair right away. He might check to you on the turn and give you a free card. Given his playing style, he probably won't make a 3-bet play back at you unless he specifically holds an A.

Did you consider raising the turn? I could tell by the pause on the flop and also a slight one on the turn that you were probably considering it.

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I don't think AJo is a standard 4 bet hand preflop at all, against the range Joe was 3 betting me with.


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I think you’re giving Joe too much credit. Here are the hands Joe was 3-betting you with pre-flop:

AA, KK, TT, 99, AK, AQo twice, AJo, A9o, A8o twice, A6s, KQo, QJ twice.

Again, I see the cards, but you can infer this from frequency and showdowns. Your AJ with position is solid against his range and should be capped. Joe might be tight, but he’s not a statue. He knows how to 3-bet against your range, and you should respond with a 4-bet. Let’s put it this way: If AJo isn’t worth a 4-bet against Joe’s 3-bet OOP, then Joe is not 3-betting enough. This is certainly not the case.

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The QQ hand - ok this was the worst hand I played IMO. I actually don't mind my river CR,


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My point was, if you’re check-raising the river, why aren’t you check-raising the turn?

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K7 trifecta hand… Remember I'm putting Joe on pretty much a good King at this point.

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Yes, I kind of figured you had to figure that Joe “had” to have a K by calling the turn check-raise. If I played the J6 hand and actually got to the river, I’m the type of guy who will never get “trifecta”ed because (a) I won’t give my opponent that pleasure because I’m never betting the river (b) If I did actually did have a hand, I probably would have given more action in previous streets.

All in all, I hated Joe’s turn call of the check-raise, and I hated the river value bet by Joe even more. And given your read of the situation, I don’t hate your river check-raise.

More Notes:

15:20 – Bad payoff by DD on river check-raise to Joe with 36o on 243 8 (turn) 2 (river).

31:20 – After DD gets out of line with 9Ts 3-betting OOP and Joe capping AJo, that’s quite the ambitious turn call with the board 525 4 with no flush draw.

38:30 – Joe has J9 and DD has 25o After Joe just check-calls 9 2 4r flop and donks a J turn, DD raises with bottom pair and makes a very, very questionable call of Joe’s 3-bet.

Upon 2nd viewing, I did find other hands DD folded pre-flop. 5 times total:
32o twice, 42o once, J2o once, 92o once. Glad to see you have standards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Garland