[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
the AK kills the offered implied odds problem.

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If this was true, it would never be correct to call a PFR with a small PP.

Button only needs to call 6bb. Since MP1 is coming along, pot on the flop is 30bb.

This is really no different than if UTG and UTG+1 limp and MP1 raises to 6bb and button calls with 44 or 9Ts. Well, except button has better pot odds to call in our re-raise hand.

So even assuming button plays "no set no bet" and folds any flop, regardless of texture, if he doesn't hit his set, he's getting priced in.

If you make a standard cbet of 20bb every time (as you did in this hand) that puts the pot at 50bb.

If you have AK and fold to button's raise when you don't hit and he has a set, button's wins 44bb for his 6bb call or 7.3:1.

So even when you have AK (or any other hand you cbet/fold) and fold, he's almost getting odds to set mine anyway.

If you stack off every time you flop overpairs then he's calling 6bb to win 120bb or 20:1 which more than makes up for any loss of EV when you have AK(etc) unless you're limp/re-raising all the time, in which case you're vulnerable to being 4-bet by anyone with half a brain. Or you're going to tell me you never cbet when your AK/etc misses. Which would be even more exploitable...

And what about when your AK hits TPTK vs a set?


I don't generally limp/re-raise but I don't think it's a bad play. However you have to make a real re-raise and force your opponents to make a mistake if they want to see a flop. As played, this hand is butchered except for very specific circumstances - villains fold too easily to 3bets/limp re-raises. Which is true of just about no live games, anywhere. And in which case we should be making this kind of play with a HUGE range of hands. And we've just wasted a lot of the value of our KK because we could probably have extracted a lot more value by playing in more straightforwardly instead of folding out button prematurely.

I realize a big part of the point here is to extract maximum value when your opponent flops a TPTK type hand or holds a smaller overpair. However, you generally don't have to outplay yourself (FPS) to do that if your opponents are so bad they're calling 3bets with KQ. Nor do you have to put yourself in massively -EV situations in order to keep them guessing. Yes, if you're going to limp/re-raise, do it with AK and 78s sometimes too. But why wouldn't you make a proper re-raise with those hands as well? If we're making the small re-raise to fold villains out cheaply, then why are we stacking off so easily post-flop? If we're raising small to keep worse hands in, why are we stacking off so easily when any reasonable player's range is crushing us if they want to play for stacks? None of this makes any sense.

A big part of learning to play FRNL well is learning when to fold overpairs. Putting yourself in situations where you can't fold your overpairs and you give your opponents odds to head-hunt against you is beyond horrible.