Re: management argue
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Copy of letter sent to Bob Ciaffone. His response is in blue:
Bob,
No limit game. Blinds are 100/200. UTG bets 800 (a 600 raise). Next player, UTG +1, goes all in for 900 total. If the 3rd player wants to raise, what would be his minimum bet and why?
Second part of this is there any specific rule covering this?
<font color="blue">[Bob Ciaffone] not exactly, but the "last previous bet or raise" is the $600 more from the UTG, so he must raise at least 600. The all-in bet is not considered a raise because it is only a $100 increase </font>
There seems to be a disagreement as to whether the total bet needs to be 1400 or 1500. Everyone agrees that the raise amount is 600. Some say that this gets you 600+600+200 = 1400 (or 800+600). I'm of the opinion that he needs to call the 900 and then can add the 600 raise on top. This makes his minimum bet 1500. If 1400 is correct how you can just ignore the extra 100 in the 900 bet? It needs to be acknowledged should anyone just want to call; meaning that a player cannot just call the 800, but need to call 900.
<font color="blue"> [Bob Ciaffone] He needs to increase the wager to him by at least $600 (so $1500 total minimum) </font>
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Cliff notes below.
Note that "not exactly" is bolded.
I think the raise should be to $1500 but it certainly isn't clear according to Bob's written rules or the rules used by the biggest cardrooms in the world (i.e. most of the Los Angeles county rooms, which were heavily influenced by Bob's input back in 1997).
Today I spoke with two floor at a Los Angeles card barn and they both said $1400 would be their ruling. I asked them if the allin raise was to $1300 what would be their ruling. They said it would still be $1400 since the $500 raise was "action only". I spoke to one of the floor at length and he agreed it is problematical and the rule should be clarified.
Had I spoken to most of the floor staff in LA I believe it would break about 2 to 1 in favor or $1400 (except at Hawaiian Gardens where they use double the total amount of bets and raises you are facing).
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Cliff notes:
The written NL raising rule(s) need to be clarified so that $1500 would clearly be the right answer in the OP.
As an alternative I believe poker rule-makers should consider the HG "double the previous action" rule as being best of all.
~ Rick
PS As an aside some of the posters on this forum need to adopt a more courteous and respectful tone when they disagree.
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the "not exactly" is in reference to the question about a specific rule governing this situation, not about what the bet amount should be.
But as Bob points out the player must increase the wager "to him" (his emphasis, not mine) so this clearly makes the bet 1500.
As numerous posters have already pointed out though, one may experience different results in different cardrooms.
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