[kleath]

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BB isn't a pro but seems to play pretty well.

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Sounds like ATC to me....

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It's +ev to shove ATC here, the question is about if we should pass up our thinnest edges with the bottom of our range so that we can

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When slim said "isn't a pro but seems to play pretty well." That's the best case you could ask for, predictable behavior and won't think outside the box, most likely is calling range is going to be uber tight in these spots, so no I'm not passing up on "x" now to receive "y" later..

Against a "pro" or an idiot I might think differently of it, but even with that based on Citanul post, thinking twice about it would be a mistake.

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This makes no sense, its been established that pushing is +ev, its not going to make a difference if its bigjoe or the described villain, a better player cant just fabricate a calling range that suddenly becomes good, we're talking about folding a pretty thin edge here if we're folding only our worst hands, It has to be good to fold some hands here.

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i see what you and everyone else are pointing to, and I tend to agree that folding out the bottom is good, but the fact remains that the incremental edge gained is going to be so incredibly close here that I don't know how we can conclude on the exact part of the bottom of our range to fold short of coming up with a magical exact calling range for villain and call frequencies for UTG et al as citanul pointed to.

i guess im trying to say that i dont think anyone can fully refute someone saying to fold bottom 5% vs. bottom 15%, but I think we can conclude on slim's original question, which conclusively is that its unlikely that passing up on *some* hands here in a seemingly ATC spot is going to be worse than shoving ATC (again, assuming youre not folding too much). hope this makes sense, i just bought a volcano.

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Well I think it comes down to more of a judgement call than anything else.