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Cry Me A River · #9 09-12-2007, 02:32 PM

I'll admit I'm ambivalent here.

Yes, ratholers are annoying. However, the vast majority of shortstackers are horrible and not the kind of players I want to chase away. I think these players are much more likely to drop down in stakes than to buy-in with a bigger stack.

You also need to consider the meta-effects on a level. Right now Stars tables average maybe 2 shortstackers per table. Eliminating them would mean 22% less tables. Eliminating that many tables means more 12-tabling TAG regs per table and a lower fish:shark ratio. In effect, you'd be trading the shortstacks at your table for TAGs.

Is that what you really want to do?

I think there's a lot of selective memory going on here. You remember the handfull of good shortstackers and the times shortstackers put you in tough positions. But you forget all the times bad shortstackers hand you free money.

Here are some examples just from today...

In this hand, the initial raiser had a 3.4 PFR. So my 3-bet range is not exactly huge.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $99.00
BB: $20.00
UTG: $126.20
UTG+1: $31.60
Hero (MP1): $107.30
MP2: $18.50
CO: $37.50
BTN: $103.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 Players)
UTG raises to $4.00, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $16.00, MP2 raises all-in to $18.50, 5 folds, Hero calls $2.50

Flop: ($42.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Turn: ($42.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($42.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $42.50 ($2.10 Rake)

MP2 had 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$18.50)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Fours) and WON (+$21.90)

AT0 vs a raise OOP with a shortstack. And then there's flop...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $282.05
BB: $101.50
UTG: $104.30
UTG+1: $18.50
MP1: $72.80
MP2: $97.40
MP3: $30.00
CO: $60.00
Hero (BTN): $105.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
4 folds, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero raises to $6.00, 2 folds, MP3 calls $5.00, CO folds

Flop: ($14.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP3 bets all-in for $24.00, Hero calls $24.00

Turn: ($62.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($62.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $62.50 ($3 Rake)

MP3 had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Jacks and Tens) and LOST (-$30.00)
Hero had Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Jacks) and WON (+$29.50)

Calling a raise OOP with QJo. Tiny donk on flop. Chasing draws with a shortstack (and therefore having no implied odds). Bluffing with 1/3 pot bet.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $76.00
BB: $98.90
UTG: $27.00
UTG+1: $60.50
Hero (MP1): $134.60
MP2: $281.55
MP3: $100.00
CO: $102.80
BTN: $17.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG calls $1.00, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $5.00, 6 folds, UTG calls $4.00

Flop: ($11.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets $2.00, Hero raises to $11.00, UTG calls $9.00

Turn: ($33.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($33.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets all-in for $11.00, Hero calls $11.00

Pot Size: $55.50 ($2.65 Rake)

UTG had Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (high card Queen) and LOST (-$27.00)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, King high) and WON (+$25.85)

Calling LP raises with SC's...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $86.75
BB: $93.95
UTG: $97.00
UTG+1: $24.55
MP1: $84.60
MP2: $88.55
Hero (CO): $215.65
BTN: $39.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.00, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1.00, Hero raises to $6.00, BTN calls $6.00, 3 folds, MP2 calls $5.00

Flop: ($20.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $15.00, BTN raises all-in to $33.60, MP2 folds, Hero calls $18.60

Turn: ($87.70) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($87.70) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $87.70 ($3 Rake)

BTN had 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and LOST (-$39.60)
Hero had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (four of a kind, Jacks) and WON (+$45.10)

Or how about this bit of brilliance?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $234.80
BB: $19.00
UTG: $88.20
UTG+1: $98.95
MP1: $21.05
MP2: $104.50
CO: $87.60
BTN: $23.15

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 Players)
6 folds, Hero raises to $4.00, BB calls $3.00

Flop: ($8) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $6.00, BB raises to $12.00, Hero raises to $18.00, BB calls all-in for $3.00
Uncalled bet of $3.00 returned to Hero

Turn: ($38) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($38) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $38.00 ($1.85 Rake)

BB had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Jacks and Fives) and WON (+$17.15)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Fives) and LOST (-$19.00)

More free money...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $22.15
BB: $66.10
UTG: $111.70
UTG+1: $39.75
MP1: $106.00
MP2: $9.65
MP3: $37.50
Hero (CO): $121.90
BTN: $142.35

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9 Players)
3 folds, MP2 calls $1.00, MP3 folds, Hero raises to $5.00, 3 folds, MP2 raises all-in to $9.65, Hero calls $4.65

Flop: ($20.80) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Turn: ($20.80) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($20.80) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $20.80 ($1 Rake)

MP2 had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$9.65)
Hero had Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Jacks) and WON (+$10.15)

Remind me again why I want these guys to leave?