[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm bad at omaha/8 so please bare with me. And yes I know if I'm bad at omaha/8 playing it at 75/150 might be a mistake, you'll just have to trust me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

4 handed game, UTG raises, I coldcall on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I'm happy to discuss preflop if this isn't close, I expect a 4 way pot every time fwiw. Both blinds call.

Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] SB bets, BB calls, UTG raises, I 3 bet. Thoughts on 3 betting vs coldcalling and raising good turn cards? SB calls, BB folds, UTG 4 bets, I cap, both call.

Turn is 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I'm feeling like this is a good turn card. Checked to me, I bet, SB checkraises, UTG check 3 bets.

UTG is probably the best player in the game though I doubt he is a lot better than me (meaning we are both mediocre but huge favorites in this game), SB is an ok player but I doubt his o/8 experience and I think basically he's a holdem player who has a clue in this game and is very aggressive. I felt strongly he had 23 on the flop and so far I have no reason to change that opinion on the turn.

So after UTG 3 bets the turn should my thought process be on the "crying call and hope to get to showdown cheap" side, on the "oh baby cap it up I've got the nutsssss" side, or somewhere in the middle?

Thanks for any thoughts,
DeathDonkey

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First off, an aggressive four handed game is going to have a surplus of variance and a lot more marginal situations. This hand is representative of both.

You remarked that you thought the turn was a good turn card for you. It wasn't. There were very few good turn cards for your hand, namely a 4,9,A,K, usually in that order. Yes, you picked up a baby flush draw and a low draw, but assuming that you would improve if you made either hand is a mistake. They do add equity to your hand statistically speaking, but it's negligible and to be honest you will lose more when you backdoor these hands than what you will win when they actually improve your hand.

Your action is representative of a few primary hands; AAxx, AKxx, 44xx, and 235X. Obviously your range is wider than that, but an observant opponent will initally put you on those hands and given preflop he will likely put you on one of the first three.

I agree that the SB appears to have 2-3 in his hand. The real question that needs to be answered here is whether or not you feel that one of these players has 235X. When there's a check raise followed by a check raise three bet, it looks to me like at least one, if not both of these players think they're on a free roll, and 235 is the best free roll draw on the turn. If you assign one of them a hand that contains 235 with no flush draw, then you'd have to put a few hands in the range of the other player, and I'd include A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3x Kx, A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2x 5x, A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Kx 2,3,4,5x, A234, AK25, and a few others. Please note that this is based on the fact that this hand is taken out of the context of the session and is weighted towards the assumption that this action is usually indicative of a strong hand, which is sometimes a false assumption in a short handed and aggressive 75 game. Sometimes both of these guys have the nut low and you're only dodging a 5 to quarter them, but that will also be offset by the times you're drawing dead to one out for half.


All said and done, you're going to have on average about 33% of the equity in the pot against the above scenario. I cant really tell you if the above scenario is accurate because the texture and flow of the game can vary greatly, but if I had just sat down and picked up your hand in this spot, it's the assumption that I would make. The key factor that you need to think about in that equity number is that if villain 1 is holding 235x, your equity doesnt change much at all against any part of villain 2's range, and the only marked change obviously comes when you put a set in his range. For example, if villain 1 has 235x and villain 2 has A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you have 29% equity, whereas when villain 2 holds any other hand with a bigger flush draw your equity only increases to 31%, and if you run the numbers with his hand having four random cards with a flush draw your equity is between 27-31%. There's a couple scenarios where you have 40% equity, but if I had just sat down to the game and didnt have any previous inclination to believe that both of these players were playing their hands too fast I'd assume I usually have about 33% of the equity in this pot.

So by definition it's a marginal spot, but one in which I would sometimes put in an extra bet strictly because it's not head up, and most importantly because you have position and even a very aggressive player shutsdown on occasion (on the river in this example) simply through confusion of turn action that went check, check, bet, raise, re-raise, re-raise. If nothing else it's usually a break even or slightly profitable raise, and it will increase the number of times they will check to you on the river (to what extent i'm not sure) which ensures you get to showdown more often and gives you more options on the end. I cant tell you how many times I've seen a game like this when someone with your hand just calls on the turn and then mucks the river for better or for worse because it was two bets cold when it got back to him and the river had come a straight, flush, or wheel card.


Hope that helped, but try to keep in mind it's a difficult spot, as well as high variance and marginal, and it takes a lot of time to recognize these spots and adapt to them, and short handed high stakes games are full of them.


-Tex