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Old 11-13-2007, 02:20 AM
Small Fry Small Fry is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 761
Default Re: Home game ruling - was this guy a douche?

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In short, tabling a hand locks it.

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Does this apply for both tournament and cash games? My original responses were directed at the OP's game being cash. I'm finding it hard to believe that the actions of a player, saying he folds and throwing his hand away, can be overridden by the fact that his cards could land face up. Or are we going to argue Adolf didn't say "fold" so technically he didn't fold?

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Well, yes, that is a technicality, but a very important one. When I work, unless someone says "fold" or "pass", I don't count it as such until the cards are in my hand in the muck. Even then, it's best to wait for the hand to be mucked before acting on it.

I only deal cash games. Look again at the OP. He didn't throw his hand away and he didn't say he was folding. It's a live hand.

As to the very different situation of someone just throwing his hands in the middle and them happening to land face-up... if it was at showdown, they'd probably still play. At least in my room. But we also have a magical muck. But that's not what happeend here. If someone puts his hand face up on the board, it plays, regardless of what he says.

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I agree if a player tables his hand then it should play. I consider a "tabled" hand as one a player turns over in front of himself or in an area close to him. I consider a hand as being "folded " when a player tosses it away. Like into the middle of the table.

But, with no other action by the player I would then rely on which way the cards landed, face up or down, to determine if it was a call or fold. Face up a call. Face down a fold. If there is additional action, say a vocal command then I think this overrules how his cards land. A player who bluffed the river and is pretty sure if he's called he's beat can either show or he can can just fold / muck. Typically he will not say "fold", but will just toss his hand away. Maybe saying good call or nice hand. Maybe he'll just rap the table. But all these action indicate concession of the hand. I say once this happens he no longer has a hand to lay claim to the pot. It doesn't matter if his cards land face up or face down as his intent is clearly to have his hand folded. I think we would all agree if his cards landed face down that he would have folded. But maybe not? But now, just because his cards are face up they are unfolded.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Also, in real life here is how I would handle this. If I was dealing a game and a player tossed his hand into the middle of the table, and it landed face up, and he said "take it" I would be confused. The physical action of tossing his cards out face up indicate he "might" be tabling his hand. (Why any player would toss his cards so they are out of his control before the pot has been awarded is beyond me. But I digress...) His verbal actions indicate he is giving up. So I would stop the action right there and ask him what he is doing. If he says he is showing his cards for a showdown then great. Pot goes to player with best hand. If he says he's done and just folding then I turn his cards over and muck his hand. Pot goes to the only player that still has cards.

I'll repeat that I'm talking about cash games in the above. Not a tournament. Tpournament rules state an all in player must table his hand and the best hand wins. So in the OP Adolf wins.

Sorry for the long posts, beating this topic to death and the hijack but I don't like to be wrong on these issues. I run tournaments and cash games several times a month and take pride in making sure I know the rules. When I am wrong I like to know the specifics of why and where.
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