[Borodog]

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You're just waving your hands about. None of this follows logically from anything. If you're creating universes, you could just as easily creat one that doesn't appear to have a start. I was playing Quake 4 earlier today and I saw no hint of a Big Bang.

[/ QUOTE ] Boro, yes you can create one that doesn't appear to have a start. But ours does appear to have a start. Created universes must have a start. Having a start is consistant with a created universe.

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And how is it incosistent with a non-created universe? What would a universe without a start possibly look like? Hint: I don't think you can have a non-created universe without a start.

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For instance if the universe never had a start and that could be proven, any talk of a creator would be easliy dismissed.

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Why? What distinguishes a big created universe from a big non-created one?

[/ QUOTE ] Nothing, I think you may be misunderstanding. The properties we notice of this universe are consistant with a created one. I am not saying they are inconsitant with non created ones. Why is that such a big contention to you? Besides it being the weakest point of the arguement.

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This is useless. Any and all properties we observe could be consisted with a created universe simply by postulating that the creator created it that way.

This is just silly. It doesn't explain anything, and you certainly can't make any claim that our universe is more likely to be created than non-created. It just doesn't follow from anything.