[daveT]

Wow, long thread, and read everything. I cannot say that any of it choked me up. I think that I share the same page as diebitter. We are both agnostic and believe that our brains can be used for more profitable purposes than worrying and arguing about religion. I am glad that this did not turn to a flame war.

I am not going to quote, or say I remember who is who, I am only going to do a blanket post, and hope I remember everything.

On history:

Anyone who has studied history knows that Christianity was popularized on hippocracy, extremism, and greed. In many ways, that is still the case, and that since this religion has that scar, it will always have that scar. As long as people feel self-righteous, there will always be a loud, violent, extreme thought process about issues.

The reason somethings are considered "issues" is because there are two extreme groups who loudly protest each other. WW2 was not an "issue" in America because every one believed in it's cause and we were more than eager to join the war. There was no debate, the vote to go to war was unanymous - 1.

If you ask the average person what they think about abortion, the answer will be "I don't know." Roe vs Wade will never be over turned, not because it is a moral issue, but it is an issue of privacy and infringement. Most issues are like like this. Most American's consider themselves Christians, but do not really know the answers, don't care enough to go to church, etc. They try to be kind, and hope that Jesus will forgive them of their sins. That is something that I cannot judge either way.

Most Christians in America probably don't care about the meanings of holidays. The new movement by the Christian base is to stop saying "non-offensive" phrases such as "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Holidays." No, they tell you to say Merry CHRISTmas." Is this a real "issue?" I don't think so, but a few loudmouths have to make an "issue" out of it.

To beat a Fundy, you simply talk to them about reality, and even easier, recite the very thing they throw in your face: The Bible.

All of our holidays were taken over by the Christians from the Pagans. My grandmother told me how at the beginning of the century, Christmas did not exist. It was called Solstice. Solstice involved the use of a Tree, lit with candles, and presents. Same holiday, different name. Solstice was also a day of reflection on the past year, with a one day fast, and thoughts on the year to come.

Halloween was once named Samhain. It was NOT a religious holiday so much as a celebration of of the Harvest. The Christians got the word "spirit" confused with "ghost." Samhain was also used as a time for an appreciation of those who passed.

Beltain was converted to Easter. Beltain was a celebration of the "new year" and a celebration of the planting. It was a celebration of life, a time of marriage. It is ironic that most marriages are still performed at this time of year.

The Founding Fathers were all Christians. Many of them were able to recite passages from the Bible, and there were many who were able to recall the entire thing. Our Constitution is based, in many ways, on the Bible, and all Fundamentalists will tell you that. However, the Constitution guaranteed the one thing that Jesus taught the most ardently: toleration.

I tell anyone who jumps in my face that they should read "Acts," the book that deals with how the Apostles spread their beliefs. It does not involve standing on a street corner screaming beliefs.

I have been all over the country, and I have seen some disturbing problems dealing with religions of all types. If you ever go to New Orleans and see the Tarot readers on Jackson Square, the readers on the southern side are considered "good" (so-called white magic users) and the readers on the north are considered "evil" (so-called black magic users). I have seen large fights in between these sides, and it is scary to think the extremes of their thinking. The Christians picketed the north side of the Square constantly.

America is a country of extreme thought processes. Think of how the Abortion/ pregnancy thing turned out in California. Here, it is considered wrong to let a child be born with no prenatal care. Any mother of low income has free mandated prenatal care. One one extreme, you have people who say that these mothers should not have the option to abort, and the others say they should be able to abort. Somewhere in the center, it was agreed that the parents should have the choice to have a child, and the child should not suffer.

On one extreme you have pure capitalism (republican party) and the other on socialism (democratic party). There are victories on both sides. While a child can have a free pass to being born and food in his belly while he is helpless, a free basic education, he is on his own when he has to pay for his own health care, education, and income bracket. People slip through the cracks in this system. There are essentially two classes of people in this country.

Most people in America are not religious nuts, and make the choice to ignore Religion. I live within walking distance of at least six churches, along with tens of thousands of others. Most people will agree that one of the scariest people are the people who will walk up to you and say "Let's talk about Jesus."

As for England. Isn't there some American expatriate dude who writes for the Guardian who write a pile of venom every week about how America is falling apart? When is the last time he set foot on this soil? What does he really know? Does one of the world's most respected papers ever ask themselves this? How could we expect common folk to question him if they are told by a media leader that this is all true? I could make up tons of things about the world, and we see this happen all the time, even here. That is the nature of propaganda.