[Praxising]

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You're kind of abusing simulator stats there. If you hold A2J and you are getting 2:1 to call on the flop, it's only worth it if calling will put you all in. The future bets in the hand mean that your *effective* pot odds will be very close to 1:1.

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I have no idea how all people who think this way think. (Which is part of my math-blindness.) We don't know what the future bets in the hand will be. This is always a call with the understanding you have to catch to bet or call. About this:

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In order to call on 3rd, you need to feel that you have the best hand, or close to it, OR you are getting good enough *immediate* pot odds to warrant out-flopping your opponent, which happens about 1 in 5 times.

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Not according to what I've read. You have four possibilities on 4th (or any other street) you catch/he bricks, he catches/you brick, you both catch, you both brick.

So, you have a 25% chance of getting even (you catch, he bricks) a 75% chance of at least improving your own hand (you catch/he catches, you catch/he bricks, you both catch.) Even when you both brick, you might "catch" if that brick is a duplicate of a hole card and he bricks paint.

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And with A2J it's even less likely because not only will you need a low card to outflop 678, he'll need to catch something J or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]I need an 8. Any 9 or higher is a brick for him.

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678 is not a steal hand, it's perfectly legitimate hand to play, in later position, against either some mediocre up cards or players that you're better than.

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No, it sucks tidewater. Any other 8 has you. Any other 87 has you.

(You know, Rusty, if you and I didn't disagree so much there'd only be three posts a week on Razz around here. Keep 'em coming!)