[mtgordon]

Just because there's no indication that they're dead doesn't mean you shouldn't discount them. I guess I'm looking for a more detailed description of how you count your outs that make the flop a call. I counted of 4 outs, but then had to discount them because of the flush draw and the pfr. I haven't heard anyone disagree with that and give reasoning for doing so.

He could be betting his draw, but you still have to hit to be ahead (I don't think you're calling the turn without improving) and if he's betting the flush draw then you're not getting odds to hit since you're drawing to 1/3 less outs and he would still have redraws even if you hit your outs.