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bubaloo · #4 11-25-2007, 11:16 AM

just noticed that it got cut off at the end, there is more but its gonna be split up.

 I've been thinking about indentifying when TAGs have a weakish onepair hand that can't stand a river check-raise. What do you think to the two hands I posted http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post9327231? How is my thought process in general? 

OK well I only saw one hand that you posted in the OP, I'll comment on it.

In general, the line of thinking that you're taking (with or without knowing it, perhaps) is: "No hand that bets the river for value after checking behind the turn for pot control and withstand a river check raise."

The problem with that in this hand here, is that the turn paired the board, and he could definitely get tricky to try and check behind a boat to string along anything you have to try and catch up.

An ideal situation to try this is: raise from CO, you call in bb. Flop is K J 6, two clubs. You CC 2/3 of the pot. Turn is 8, you check, villian checks behind. River is 5, you check, he bets 2/3 for value: here, the 5 is unlikely to make him two pair, so he's almost always got AK or KQ, assumedly. You can CR here as a bluff profitably in my estimation against guys who can find folds... but not great thinking players. Basically, it's a spot where I LOVE to play the nuts very slow like this (I'm more likely to do it on drier boards.. I have 77 on Q 7 2 flop... I will often check three streets, as risky as it sounds, becuase i LOVE to CR the river.

Basically, you need to know that you're a level ahead of him to make a play like this, and in order to please Shania (she's so fickle) you need to make sure you do this with the nuts as well, or at least a strong hand (i.e., on the board I said, I'd almost always CR the river if I made two pair somewhere.. I'd also CR the river as a bluff, somewhere Sklansky outlies where it's good to CR the river as a bluff, and not good to lead the river as a bluff.. he's got great general concepts behind it).

Also, in the hand you showed me, make it 120 instead of 100, you have much more FE.

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nice well

1. how do you handle boredom while playing online?

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If I have less than 8 tables open, I usually am talking to people on aim (very bad idea) and I've got music on. Sometimes, when doing only 5 tables or so, I browse 2+2, but I highly recommend against it.

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2. do you think cheating is a threat to poker in general (online/offline both)?

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Absolutely. I mean, I remember at the PCA two years ago I walked by a back room and saw some name pros and major online guys playing like 1-2 PLO full ring, seriously sitting there on three laptops going... "You minraise it, and we'll get everyone to call becuase they never fold, and I'll shove with the nuts when it gets back around to me. It's perfect!" That is a very small scale level, but if that can be done, then it can be done on a more serious level. Look at what someone like Zee Justin did unexpectedly, some people really are ignorant to the rules, or just like to bend them a lot.
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3. will 100nl always be this easy?

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Yes. The reason is this: No one from higher stakes will ever come down. That is, I don't care if I could grind 10 tables of 100NL, I could never stomach it. It might make me 50 dollars an hour, which is a sick hourly rate at a job in "real life," but I would have to play tons of hours and I would be very unfulfilled and probably have trouble playing my A game. I think a lot of people feel the same way, plus, many have made plenty of money and would rather play higher stakes live than lower stakes online. For most poker players, it has to hurt to lose, and a random 50 bb pot would just not phase me at 100NL.
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4. and how do you recommend a SSNL player should study? any methods, tips, tricks would be nice to hear. I sturggle with even the idea of studying poker. The farthest ive taken it has been to pick up a few books, and reply to a post on 2p2 here and there. 

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Studying became a disease to me. There was a 6 month period where I couldn't go without 2+2 for any second of the day... whenever there was downtime, I was looking at evferything. I literally never missed a post in MSNL or HSNL for several months. I wanted to reply to everything. I wanted to give my opinion. Even if I was shot down, I then wanted to argue and hear why. Having people tell me I am wrong has been huge for my learning process. I've read all the basic books, Theory of Poker, anything else anyone said was any good, Super System, Caro's Tells... probably about a dozen of them.

You have to have a drive to learn and be the best if you really want to get better. But you can't fabricate something like that, if it doesn't exist, just try to stay consistent and win as much money as you can, nothing else you can really do.

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 How important do you think your preflop game is or just preflop in general? How big of a hit in winrate if any do you expect if you had to play with a vpip < 20? < 15? 

Well, I'd say that if I tightened up, but I still had the same aejones image, I would probably still get a lot of action. I would still play the same way postflop, so... I'm not really sure. One time, I had a 18/15 image because I was like 9 tabling 1-2 a few months ago, and it was SO BORING that I had to kill myself, I was folding KJs UTG and small suited connectors that I like to open. I really have NO idea what exactly it would do for my winrate, it might up it? who knows.

 What are your typical 3 bet sizes in and out of position, and why? 

My typical 3-bet sizes are actually fairly small. At 5/10, I raise 30 to 90 in position, 30 to 100 OOP, 35 to 110 either way, 40 to 120 or 130, and sometimes 141 depending on where the raise comes from. At 2/4, it was 12 to 40, 12 to 52 with one caller, sometimes a little more on obvious squeezes, etc. I make it more from oop than in positon, but I think anyone that is 3-betting 4 times the size of the open raise with no callers is really making a mistake. Smaller raises accomplish the same thing in my estimation, though you have to cut down on implied odds to a point, so you can't make them too small.

Recently I've been raising to things like 2.5x from position to iso vs a light opener, but I won't do this vs someone who likes to 4-bet; I'll only do it to gain initiative and usually when we're well over 100bbs deep (~150 I guess). The small 3-bet sizing can be effective because it can often do the same thing that larger 3-bet sizing would do, and less risk, etc.

Also, I make my c-bets in 3-bet pots about 60% of the pot typically, I very much dislike betting the pot. I'll bet more on draw heavy boards though obviously, and less on dry boards. I have always felt like the more room you have to manuever, the better and trickier you can play.

 I've always considered experimenting with CR'ing thin river value bets (obviously vs thinking players), but i don't know how profitable this is at 200NL...as people have to REALLY believe you before they'll fold. Do you have any HH's where you CR thin river vb's as a bluff? 

Unfortunately, all the hands in my database got wiped, and I only have the results of them, no text of actual hands. I don't think I've ever posted a river check raise bluff on 2+2.. actually I think I did once, but I played the hand awfully, and it would be a bad example.

If I find something, I'll post it here ASAP.

 Do you think I am a bad poker player? 

I think it would be nearly impossible for you to trick Lee Jones for so long. You have to be at least decent, right?

 2 questions homie
1) UTG+1 (24/20 type lagtag) opens, everyone folds, you're on the button
whats your calling range w/ no metagame

2) have you ever played against me? if so, how'd it go/hows my game 

1) Traditionally, with no history, my calling range is like... 54s+, KJs+, 22-JJ, AQo. I'll usually 3-bet QQ+ and AKo, sometimes tens and jacks, and 20% of the time I have random... maybe a hand like 53s or something that shouldn't be in my calling range but I think I can profitably 3-bet with.

2) I don't think we've ever played together.. have we? Unless you have a different name on poker sites that I don't know about, I don't think we have many/any hands together.

 AEJones, thx for doing this, lots of good stuff in here.

RE: MTTC. I think maybe your conclusions could be better worded as "MTTs take less overall skill to beat" than "MTT players have less overall skill" 

Probably.

 Also, ive been receiving coaching from pasterbator for a while. Assuming hes passed on his approach to the game and thought processes effectively, up to what level do you think he can teach me to beat the game? (also assume my intelligence is not a factor) Thoughts on his game in general? 

I actually have no experience with coaching (yet) though I'd like to get into it. The problems I see with coaching is similar to Siddhartha. If you've read the book Siddhartha, it's basically someone who goes searching for himself... Well, he finds that you can't find yourself in teachings, you have to experience it for yourself. Nothing that anyone has written can give you the experience needed to kill poker games. My point is basically that people can't instill 100 thousand hands of 6m poker into you, you'll have to do a good deal of experiencing it on your own...

However, someone like Pasterbator who can seemingly beat just about any midstakes level, can help you in a ton of spots that it would have taken you forever to learn. I have no idea about your poker past, but in due time (probably a short amount, assuming you have some history at some poker level) I can't see how he couldn't turn you into a winner at 2/4, for sure. Once you win at 2/4, 3/6 is really not that big of a jump. Anything in midstakes from 2/4-5/10 nowadays is really almost interchangeable. From my experience, people at 5/10 make less blatant mistakes than at the lower levels. However, frequently the same players play anywhere from 2/4 to 5/10, so you get a similar skill level everywhere in there... with less pure fish the higher you go.

Pasterbator has always [censored] killed me. I've been a spew monkey against him for some reason, and he's always picked me off becuase he's run extraordinarily [censored] hot. I haven't played much with him on Stars, but we played quite a bit together and Party and moved through cash game ranks at about the same pace. I think he plays very well in general. His preflop game has always been better than mine, and I know he's got the balls to pull the trigger a bunch of times both preflop and postflop. From some HHs I've seen of his on 2+2, I gather that he might be a bit spewy at times, but is an overall aggressive winner.

 My poker backround:

I switched to NL a couple of months ago after playing first limit and then sng's. I have close to 100 000 hands in, mostly at NL100 and my stats are super nitty, like 13/7, loosening up a bit lately but still only 15/8 or so. My win rate is about 3.5 PTBB/100. I was a small loser over 20 000 or so at NL200 so I am staying away from that for now. My biggest weaknesses as far as I can tell are getting stacked with overpairs especially AA and KK when villains hit sets and perhaps the fact that I bluff the river less than 1% of the time.

Things that I have been doing more that I feel have helped lately, 3-betting more often, opening/raising more hands from button and CO, playing no more than 6 tables, 8 seems to be too much for me.

Any advice for me? How can I improve to at least 5 PTBB/100 and move up to NL200? I know this is kind of vague but you have been so awesome in this well, I thought I'd throw this at ya.

And I mean it, totally awesome well, thankyou for doing this. 

You need to open up your game preflop. Anyone who is paying attention won't pay you off with anything other than sets. They're probably folding tens on a 7 high board to your kings, thats why you only feel like you're getting action from hands better than yours.

My advice is to stay fairly tight and straightforward, don't get out of your comfort zone just yet. However, start 3-betting slightly more preflop, and c-betting flops (this will use your perceived tightness to your advantage). Open raise more hands from the CO button (suited connectors, etc) and then c-bet them. This is another way that will use your image to your advantage. Remember though, don't get aggro on later streets against guys who are just not paying attention. If you're going to use your image to your advantage, do it against people who are paying attention and have you labeled as a nit.

Remember these three things: Position, position, and position.

If you're going to start calling raises in position with hands like KJs to CO opens or MP opens (guys who open light) you can now start floating some flops. Once you call, these guys will take you for a monster if they pay attention to the way that you play. So, my advice is to stay straightforward and pick up a trick or two here or there to throw off the regulars and use it to your advantage. Against donks, don't worry about loosening up, concentrate on value betting them to death. There are guys at higher stakes that play like 12/9 preflop but still are winners becuase they play well postflop and becuase they absolutely crush the donks with value. Staying at 6 tables is a good idea to, if you're going to open up your game, concentrate on it.

 Can you explain reverse implied odds please, i read about it but i just don't seem to understand it fully. 

My understanding of reverse implied odds is basically that people don't make a hand very often (with their hole cards and the board), and when they do, it is likely to be obvious and the aggressor does not have to pay them off.

For example, AQ is known to be a hand that is scarred with reverse implied odds because if you hit your ace in a big pot, you're likely to get it in dominated vs AK, and if you hit your Q, smaller pairs like TT aren't as likely to pay you off.

So, when you 3-bet with hand XX and villian calls, the flop is A B C, you bet, you have the initiative, and you take it down very often. When he does react and play back at you, his hand will often be obvious (that is, he calls your 3-bet and the flop is A 8 4 and he jumps into action, he will have ace king very often, etc.). Some of the reverse implied odds that you have can be nullified by bluffing a certain percentage of flops. So if you've got AQ and you call a 3-bet from position, the 3-bettor bets an 8 high flop and you shove, you'll be representing a hand like JJ, and not AQ, so your bluff value can make up by some of the money you lose with the reverse implied odds of the hand.

I think I explained it kind of poorly, but I feel like in my head I understand it.

 ugly and rich or poor and good looking? 

Well, you'd have to define the levels of each.

However, in general I'm taking poor and good looking, and it's not that close. My stipulation is that I still have my personality... because to me, that matters so much more than looks or money.

Witty humor FTW

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aejones,

Would you shoot against me in a 3 point contest for $10k? 

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$5k probably. I could likely get backers that would put up a large amount of money for me. I have a friend who plays college basketball that won't play me in HORSE for money. He quit me after I beat him a few times for a few hundred bucks a piece.

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How much you think your backers would put up? I have someone I would love for someone to shoot against if there was enough money up. There was a thread a few days ago about a guy on this boards who said he could take anyone shooting, but backed off pretty quick once money props were offered. We should round up some sick shooters and have a meetup in Vegas or somethin with bankrolls riding on our shooters [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Tried to PM you bout that other thread the other day but your PM box was full.

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I don't know to be honest, we'll see. I'll have to get back into better shooting shape than I am, but I'd definitely be up for something like that in the future.

 Very, very good well, I've really enjoyed reading it the last few days.

Could you expand a little on what you've said both about playing from position and oop? (perhaps post a couple of hands if you have any in what's left of your db) 

Here's an aggressive shorthanded game.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($1153)
Hero ($984)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $120, Hero calls $90.

Flop: ($240) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $222, Hero calls $222.

Turn: ($684) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($684) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $684

Results in white below: 
BB has 9c Ks (one pair, fives).
Hero has 6c 7c (two pair, sevens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $684. 

This is a 3-bet pot and the entire thing isn't super standard, but I can illustrate the point that I would likely not have won this pot from OOP.

I really wish I could give an even better example, but I only have 1k hands to choose from. Basically, just know that being able to act last is a huge thing. Look at your position stats sometime in poker tracker, and see how much you're winning with each hand from positions, and how much you're losing from the blinds. It's widely known that even the best in the business can't do more than barely breakeven from the blinds. Being OOP is such a tough task in many spots. To play better OOP, I suggest studying and figuring out great positions to CR the river both for value and as a bluff.

 You recommend c-betting a lot, which I agree with, but more often than not, it seems that if I open KJs UTG, get one caller, miss and c-bet a dry board I get pressured out of the hand. Similarly, if I'm in LP, and open with 9Ts and get called out of the blinds (something that seems to happen a ton to me) the blinds seem to lead into me on the flop more often than not. 

Well, here's a little secret that I probably learned right around the time I started playing 200NL. Flop donk-bets are exploitable most of the time. Most players at 100/200NL want to slowplay big hands, especially on dry boards. I recommend raising flop donk-bets a very, very high % of the time. Flop is Q 7 5 and you have any two cards, player leads into you for 12 dollars into a 18 dollar pot, just jack it up to 35 or 40 dollars right there. It will win the pot a very high percentage of the time (people donk-bet with draws often, so I recommend raising with a hand like A high that can beat most straight draws in case you have to go to showdown). If you do raise his donk, and he doesn't 3-bet, you should know that his range (for standard player) is almost always a medium one pair hand like QT, maybe a second pair hand, or a draw. People don't lead into the PFR with monsters that often.

I almost never lead into the PFR, but if someone does lead into you, take advantage of having position on all later streets (note that this will sometimes require you to fire a second bullet if they take a while and call the flop). Either way, learn how to exploit the little flop donk-bets, they're relatively easy to take advantage of.

 So say the rules were, you got the bet up to some crazy amount, like $100,000 or something, rule is you can bring anyone to the contest. If a poster was best friends with Kapono or someone and got him to come in the off season, would the rest of the guys be pissed or just be like "damn, we got owned"? 

I'd probably bring my friend in. He is shooting 52% from 3-point land this year at a D2 school in the midwest, in what is by far the most competitive D2 conference. He's a junior there, and he could have gone to a handful of D1 schools, Belmont and Army were the most prominent; but he chose to stay closer to home. I'd put him in there for straight 3s against a whole bunch of people, but I'd put myself in for HORSE. I have good range (obviously he does too) from the volleyball line+ and can shoot well left handed, off the bounce, granny style, over the backboard.. I guess i just have a good understanding of physics and creating shots, etc. so that I would put no one before myself in HORSE.

 Thanks for this and here goes.

A bit general perhaps but how do you handle being 3bet pf OOP/IP by

a) Lagtard/tricky
b) Nit 

a) Against a lagtard, it's still wise to be prudent about what you're playing in 3-bet pots. If you open the CO and a lagtard 3-bets from the blinds, you might play 9s or 10s more aggressively on certain boards. That is, you might call preflop, call a flop bet on a Q high flop if his c-bet % is high, and just try to get to showdown. Generally speaking though, if someone is aggressive and you think he's full of moves, it may be better to just call preflop for less than 10% of your stack with pocket pairs, try to hit sets, or just call preflop with aces and kings from position, and shove all flops with unders over his c-bet. By traditionally trapping this guy, you'll probably make out as good as you would if you tried other moves. Just stick to big draws, big pairs and sets in 3-bet pots. From out of position, it's really probably wise to just stay out of his hair... don't go picking a fight that you can't handle. If you think he's prone to tilt or something, you might want to play a few more hands against him and try to hit flops to tilt him, but don't call 3-bets from OOP with dominated hands like KQo or something crazy like that, stick to the basics OOP. Also, be much more likely to play hands when you're on the button if you think he 3-bets light from the blinds. When you open UTG, make sure that you know if he knows that your UTG range is tighter than your LP range, and adjust accordingly.

b) Against nits, I can't stress this enough: stay away. Basically, you're going to want to play only premiums vs them in and out of position. 4-bet MORE as a bluff and less with aces and kings, one thing with nits is that they often overplay their strong hands. So, try to hit a set when you're 150bbs deep and stack their overpair. If you raise with aces and they three-bet, don't four bet, you don't want to discourage action from QQ.

 What are you calling/4 betting with and if called how are you proceeding with a marginal (<JJ)hand on

a)dry flop
b)wet flop
c)all low cards

Basically what are you looking for in a flop in this kind of situation ? and how are you proceeding ? 

You have to know how often your opponent is 3-betting you, you have to know how often he c-bets, or more importantly, what he'll do on the turn with a whiffed hand if you call his c-bet. If I call preflop with mid pairs, I'll often call a c-bet on like jack high boards, assuming that AK and AQ whiffed. It's almost never correct to just raise, becuase you'll only get called by better hands.

As far as four-betting, I rarely 4-bet. When I do, it's usually AK, QQ+, or air. I don't know how common 4-betting with air is at 100 and 200NL, but it's become all the range at the higher stakes. I 3-bet aces from the big blind the other day, and the button shoved with A6o. I snap called and held (a miracle).

In 3-bet pots, I generally play slowly with big hands on dry boards, and quickly on draw heavy boards, obviously becuase I would play my draws quick as well so it pleases Shania.

 ae, I have a similair question, about the donks and flop bets.

at 100NL a lot of the time lately I will raise PF, say with AK and the flop will be like 2, 7, J or something. I will make my cont bet and the guy will min raise it. Now what?

I am bad at knowing what to do here. 

This comes up quite a bit. There is a huge difference if there is a flush draw on the J 7 2 board or not. If there is, people very very often check-min-raise c-bets with draws. Sometimes gutshot straight draws, but more often flush draws. Another hand people like to do this with is a medium/weak top pair hand. Sometimes, I'll call the minraise with AK (float) with the intention of taking it away on the turn. (I c-bet 10 into 18 on the flop, they make it 20, I call. Turn is a blank [not pairing the top card] he bets 30 [half pot] and I make it 100 to try and get him fold his top pair medium kicker)

Also, it would help that if you can get a stat like some people do on PAHUD where you can see what % villian raises c-bets. If I had access to that at lower levels, it probably would have helped my winrate a lot. Also, it really never hurts to 3-bet with air a decent amount. You c-bet 12, he makes it 24, pop it up to 85-100 or so on occasion and see how it goes. People generally will get tight if you 3-bet the flop unless you have an absolutely maniacal image. In this same vein, I recommend c-bets of half pot to 2/3 of pot. You might get calls from mid pair hands more often, and therefore have to fire more second barrels, but the smaller c-bets you make, the more room you have to manuever and make plays, which helps a lot.

 I started playing less than 6 months ago, had an epiphany on Dec 6th and have moved from 25NL to 100NL and have just acquired 20BI for 200NL. Personally, I've only played 13k hands of 100NL (6PTBB) and feel like I should play a bit more to fix some of my leaks before I move up more.

1. My standard deviation feels huge. For NL100, it's 55BB/100 ($110) and 54BB/hour ($107). I realize it's a pokertracker stat and that you don't have a huge chunk to check from, but clearly, neither do I (I think it used to be even larger for me in smaller stakes as I was getting better). What are your standard deviations? Do you know what these numbers 'should' be? 

I am actually not sure what my numbers are becuase I don't know where they are in Poker Tracker, and I'm not really sure what they're supposed to be. I think we had a thread on it in MSNL a while ago and most people fell between the mid forties and the high fifties.

I would really only be worried about how high variance of a style that you play if you are regularly having ten buy in downswings. A ten buy in downswing is usually indicative of some kind of leak, or just running terrible. Other downswings are usually pretty standard... but remember, downswings often lead to bad play that we can't identify as bad play because running bad and playing bad go hand in hand.

 2. What bankroll requirements would you recommend for 200NL, 400, 600, 1000? 

I used to not care about bankroll requirements. I used to just do whatever and not really worry about it. I used to have major tilt problems, go broke every month or so. I played well postflop, but didn't know what I was doing in a lot of fundamental areas of the game.

Now, I'm a huge bankroll nit. I have 50+ buyins in my account for 5-10 NL. Before I moved up, I routinely had 50+ buyins for 400NL back on Party poker and then on Stars. Really really nitty about my BR. Now, I routinely take shots, including rapage at 10-20 and 25-50.

I highly recommend 3 buy in shots (cts advocates this as well, I think he got it from aba, but I could be wrong). I think, for instance, that if you play well and feel good about your game.. for instance, if you have a 4k roll, you should perhaps take a 3 buy in [censored] at 400NL when you get to 5k. The reason is that the risk is so much worth it because of the reward. I mean, if you ran hot at 400NL and were a good/competent player, you could make a lot of money. g-p took a shot at 25-50, I think he had a decent amount of money obviously and can probably beat 25-50 full time, but the dude made like 16 buy ins in a very very short amount of time. He ran insanely hot (there is a BBV post about this). Snakekilla88 (I think thats his tag on 2+2) used to play 200NL as far as I know, took a shot at 600NL, ran insane, and now regularly plays 600 and 1000NL because of makes a ton of money from taking a shot. Playing way above your roll is NOT good, but taking controlled shots, where you say "I will play 4 tables until I get rich or lose 3 buy ins" is VERY +EV.

The higher levels that you move, the more buy ins that you need. I'd say 20 buy ins for 400NL, 30 buy ins for 600NL, and 40 buy ins for 1k NL, or something like that.

 3. You mentioned 'merging your range' as an advanced technique. Can you literally list off advanced techniques that I can look up and study one by one? I feel like I'll be moving up in the next few months and would like to start applying/trying/testing new methods before I get there.

Thanks! 

Hmmm.. as far as advanced techniques, merging your range goes hand in hand with thin value betting. Know a lot about how you want to play in 3-bet pots (a lot of this is experience). Know all the basics and the 5/10 rule (never call more than 5% of your stack with suited connectors, never call more than 10% of your stack with a pocket pair when you need to hit a set to be good). Know about b3b'ing with draws. Don't play big pots out of position. I can't really think of exact terms... there are a lot of concepts that really aren't called anything. Maybe learn the Yeti theorem and the Zeebo theorem if you don't know them; we use them as jokes around here, but they're pretty damn true. If you're really going to move up quick, know when you should be CR'ing the river. You have to be able to look at a hand and know when checking the river is great, leading it is awful. It's the number one mistake IMO of people from OOP.

To add to the post earlier of the person asking what people do wrong the most as my level, it is, without a doubt, that no one knows when to check raise the river.

 I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of river checkraising, when to and when not to do it, and also what to do when facing one. Here are a few hands I've posted in SSNL where I've checkraised the river or been checkraised on the river. If you could can you look at each of them and tell me your thoughts on each? If you could just read the original post that'd be fantastic as to not be results oriented or anything.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post9292204

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post8571712

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post8374710

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post8926861 

In the first one, check the river always. He has to bet AK/AA which he may have gone for pot control with on the turn, and he'll probably bet small pairs or AJ hands with no showdown value. You have to check raise the river, you've shown to much weakness.

Second hand, another good spot to check raise. Leading effectively says "I have Ad or a boat, only play hands better than that." If you check, he can bluff, or bet any big diamonds. If he checks behind like QJ of diamonds, oh well, he should probably be betting it for value. If he has a straight with no diamond, he might bluff with it, but really nothing good comes from leading.

Third hand, looks good again. He's got to v-bet 2pair+, sets, or a smaller flush. No real value in leading for the pot, a good spot to check raise because his range of hands to calls your lead that won't value bet is VERY small.

The reason a call here is good is because people don't check raise the river often enough. If he's good, I can see him having KQ type hands. But 9/10 times, someone leads that river after you check behind the turn. That's the key in this hand, you have relinquished aggression on the turn, and he's still checking the river... very few 200NL players have that kind of discipline to do this with a king.

 aejones, i just read this whole thread and i feel it gave me a lot of insight and made me a tiny bit of a better poker player.
im a retired limit player (mostly 5/10 and 10/20) just starting it up with NL 100, right now im 8 tabling and i feel i can def. beat the game, i want to play maybe 50k hands and then move on to 200, i have the roll, just dont want to jump into the cold water so quick.

1)
one thing i have a problem with.
im in the SB and its folded to me and the BB is a nit. i steal here with any two and it works close to 95% of the time.

now if the BB is a 40+ vpip i tighten up so much because i dont want to be OOP for the whole hand against them. this seems wrong because i want to play many hands against them but rather IP
should i use a different approach? 

I raise a huge variety of hands from the small blind into both nits and fish. I can see why you wouldn't want to raise into fish, because he'll be harder to get respect from c-bets, and you'll whiff a lot. However, he'll also pay off more when you flop a big hand with your 57s, so perhaps in that regard it's better to raise it up and play more straightforward postflop? It's also helps to know if 40 VPIP means he'll peel a lot of flops, does he go to showdown a lot, does he fold to second barrels, does he do leaky things like minraise with medium strength hands, and how does he view you? Lots of things to consider, not every 40 VPIP is exactly the same, though in general their lack of liking to fold is good to value bet the [censored] out of, and not dick around with marginal hands.

I think your approach is just fine, consider many things and you'll be okay.

 2)
the thing that i see as most valueable is the squeeze play. i raise the limpers and take down so many pots preflop or on the flop and get more action on my real hands. right now i mostly squeeze when people have limped, can you give me some tips about squeezing when there was a raise and a call and its my turn in the blinds or OTB.

thank you 

Squeezing is huge. It used to be no part of my game at all, but I've opened up to squeezing much more since there is tons of dead money out there from people who don't defend their open raise. Raising limpers is great, they've already given away so much of their hand by limping, or limping behind, that often a big raise can do the trick. I recommend hands with no value to do this with, or hands with strong value, and to limp behind with mediocre hands that can play well postflop if you hit a flop well.

Traditionally, you'll do fine by looking at stuff like this "CO or MP raises, his PFR is like 16%+ let's say, button calls, he'll three bet with a large range here, so he's always got small pockets or random SCs" in this case, a raise with any two from one of the blidns can definitely be plus EV. I recommend a raise to like... 4.5x or so what the open was. Open to 4 dollars, call on button for 4, you're in the bb with any two, you pop it to 18 bucks. I traditionally go to 180 in the 5/10 games after it's been 40 open and one call. Squeezing definitely gets you a lack of respect though, so act accordingly. Where there is super aggro'ness at the higher levels, you'll get stuff like this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($1239.25)
Button ($1672.50)
SB ($195)
BB ($256.10)
Hero ($1015)
MP ($1021.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $30, MP calls $30, CO calls $30, Button raises to $170, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1015, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $845.

Flop: ($2105) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: ($2105) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($2105) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $2105

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kc Ac (two pair, kings and sixes).
Button has Th Tc (two pair, tens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $2105. 

Where everyone knows what everyone knows and two tens is the nuts because opening light, squeezing light, resqueezing light, etc. I don't think games play this actively preflop, so I don't recommend this.

Some favorite posts that I wrote myself:

Raising to Isolate (my best theory post, from ~8months ago)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6579556
No Theory here, just thoughts on Party's death
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7514746
(I definitely rebounded and made 50k+ since Party died)

In this thread, interesting post about where I feel we are in comparison with the Poker World
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7927273

Posts that aren't mine, but that I think it will blow your mind to read:

Samo's first post: I learned a lot about two card poker
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post4732305

Jesus this is interesting: I reread this one once every month or two
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6267939

I'm too lazy to find more... but those are some of my favorite threads.

 Is it ever correct to c/r the flop as the PFR? can you give examples (HU and multiway) 

Actually, it certainly is.

We've been talking about this some in MSNL and HSNL, and there is really very little agreement- not really a lot of experience with is. Since I c-bet nearly always, I can't imagine checking a flop with the intention of CRing. Now, if I had to come up with some examples, I would. My favorite instances would be these:

Whenever someone checks a flop that is at least moderately draw heavy to me (assuming they are the PFR) then I will bet. The reason is obviously because people c-bet a lot and bet draws and made hands alike on a draw heavy board, so if they're checking to me, it is almost always with the intention to give up. So, if I were to encounter a player that I thought did the same as I did, I might try to check a strong made hand on a draw heavy board (maybe AK on K 7 6) as the PFR if I thought that my opponent would always pounce on it when checked to. Here, I would then CR. Now, the problem with this is two fold:

One, a check raise looks much much stronger than a lead, so people will sometimes fold mediocre strength made hands that they would often call behind if you lead.

Now, that doesn't look like that big of a problem, but it presents another problem. If you start doing it as a bluff, people will start checking behind, and being OOP with a hand that wants to win a mediocre pot is tough. That is, you had garbage, you check the flop, opponent checks behind, and you lead a bunch of turns- now, he can call with A-high if he thinks you'll never check the flop with a decent made hand (one pair or better, excluding very small pairs), or he can just raise you with air or float you with anything to take it away on the river.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is be very careful with how your opponents will react to a flop CR if you are the PFR. IF you confuse your opponents, they'll often get so befuddled they'll want to look you up. So in conclusion, you may want to try this with a made hand- but if you c-bet as much as me, you don't want to [censored] with Shania too much, and your CR will look much, much stronger than your straight lead.

 1) In 3bet pots pf if I'm not doing the 3bet, what type of hands can I call with and with what intention? obviously position matters, so touch on that, but is calling w/ KQo w/100bb after I open OTB and the BB repops a solid play? Now what if I was OOP? I understand the 10% rule in regards to pocket pairs, but I'm having trouble w/ other hands. 

So much of what you're saying is feel, and even more of what you're asking is player specific. First, if a guy is tight preflop, 15/10, I recommend basically never playing a hand that is dominated so easily like KQ (specifically offsuit). That is, unless you feel he's picking on you, ditch a hand like this (and maybe even AQ). Against a 22/18 type who likes to 3-bet from the blinds (and defniitely knows that you open lightly) you can defend with certain unpaired hands (T9s, KQ, sometimes even AJ, though you'll put yourself in sticky situations with a hand like that and might want to bluff raise certain amount of pots). A lot of times, you'll want to know his 2-barreling frequency in 3-bet pots as the key. For instance, you raise to 6 OTB and bb makes it 20, you have ten-nine suited, my favorite hand. I realize there is a 5/10 rule, but if we say you are 300 dollars deep, calling is okay. So, you call with 9Ts. The flop is J 9 5. In almost all instances, calling is the correct play if he c-bets. Same with KQ on Q 9 5 board. Basically, whenever you make a one pair hand that you don't think dominates other one pair hands that you'll get action from, you should go into call down mode and "turn your hand face up" to pick off bluffs and not blow your opponent off of worse hands.

Now, this changes with QQ. If you have QQ and you are on the button and you call a 3-bet, the flop is 7 3 2, there is a huge difference. I will still sometimes call here, but notice this: The distance between the TOP card on the board and your pair is such that other pairs are considered overpairs and will frequently give you action. Thus, if a guy reraises TT, you are going stack-city on most 7 high flops with queens, it is the reason that you just called preflop after all, right?

But I'm digressing. Back to unpaired hands. KQo is generally not a hand I want to play OOP in a 3-bet pot. If I play it in position, it is will the intention of floating a ton of flops with one pair hands and gutters and dangerous flops alike.

 2) I think I've hit some SICK variance in my days and it's doing its best work to cloud up my judgment, which is generally pretty good but I have difficulty putting it into action. So assume 100bb stacks. I open in the cutoff w/ 67s and 20/14 BB makes it 3x to go. I call (?) and flop is T75 with one of my suit and BB leads for 2/3 of the pot. What's my play? If I call the flop it's a tough turn call if he shoves, unless I improve, right? And since I could pick up the FD or SD calling the turn becomes necessary often. That said, does it make more sense to raise the flop knowing that I am almost never a huge dog here (not too likely to have a set), that he'll fold some overcards OR make a bad call, that he'll fold some bigger pairs but call with most of them? Basically, knowing that I've probably got 35%ish equity here is it worth shoving this spot with this hand so I can make other shoves later on or is that massive spew? Shoving takes away our positional advantage, but it prevents us from getting bluffed out on a blank, calling a bet when he hits the turn, etc.

Thanks- this whole thing is very solid. 

Well, I think I've kind of alluded to this (and I posted a hand with 76s HU earlier in the thread that is similar). You need to know two barreling frequencies. What does your opponent think that you raise on this flop? What does he think you call with? Is the flop dry? Does he think I'll slowplay on a dry flop to induce two barrels? Does he think I'm capable of slowplay on a draw heavy board? Will he fire two barrels on a draw heavy board because he thinks I'll always raise a monster on it? I know you can't know the answer to all of these questions, but you should be thinking about them and using past hands to come up with the best that you can. If you call that flop with 76, it should be with the intention of either betting most turns when checked to (what you'd do with a float, hopefully a big hand as well) or checking most turns when checked to. Than, on the river, assuming that it goes runner runner blanks, you have to know something along the lines of: Will he open shove as a bluff? Always for value? Did I hit my 5-outer? Betting the turn vs betting the river in 3-bet pots is something that fascinates me. I've made hypotheses about it in the past and been wrong, but I think the interpretation of that play changes as you go up in stakes.

Shoving this flop is something I generally don't like to do. It depends on the player, however. If you think he can fold jacks (he probably SHOULD fold jacks, unless there is some serious metagame going on, do you see why?) then shoving this flop is better than calling down often, because he'll think that you always shove this flop with QQ+ and sometimes sets. It all really depends what level that you're both on. But, to answer your basic question, I play passively in 3-bet pots, and I would almost always just call here with one pair hand that is ahead of whiffed overcards.

 Are you from Indiana? If so, where?

My entire family went to Butler. My mother actually went to Broad Ripple HS. I was the first to break the mold (Miami-OH). Why Butler?

I spent some fun nights in Broad Ripple about 10-15 years ago (Rock Lobster and Mine Shaft were a couple of bars back then). 

I grew up in NW Indiana, the Region, Hammond to be exact.

My studies have no real rhyme or reason to lead me to Butler. Butler is one of the best pharcmacy programs and dance programs in the country. I want nothing to do with either. I was an exploratory major for my first 3 semesters, and just recently adopted Business as my future forte (to be honest, for lack of a better career/major choice). I guess I chose Butler because of location (~2 hours from home), the fact that it is an excellent school academically, and they offered me a large chunk of my tuition in scholarship money due to my academics and SAT scores. It certainly doesn't hurt that there are two girls to every guy here.

Mine Shaft and the Rock Lobster are still around, and combined with Average Joe's and the Vogue are the most popular spots for 20-somethings in Broad Ripple still. I'm only 20, but when I adopt the -something portion of the age, I suppose I'll be out in Broad Ripple quite a bit even though I don't drink.

 Just chiming in to say this is a great thread. I actually had several 'aha moments' reading this and the posts linked over to it. I think my play probably jumped a couple of levels from reading and thinking about this stuff. 

Glad I could be of service.

 ae-
your officially my favorite 2+2er.
(in a very heterosexual way of course) 

Of course. I'm pretty sure you're my first fanboy.


wow ae, giving out quite a lot of info. 

I can't really see any reason why not to. I don't forsee online poker being great forever and I don't think a very high % of my opponents will get around to reading it. I hope you've enjoyed it sir I think back in the day you were always one of the most underrated posters. I don't remember specific poiints, but I think somewhere you've written things that have helped my game.

 Thanks a lot of doing this!!

One more question:

Say I am kind of stuck in a rut concerning my game. Or sday you were. What would be your plan of attack to get out of the rut? In terms of playing vs studying/reading?

I am not sure the best way to review my play and make sure I am losing pots due to variance and not tilt and/or bad plays. 

Well, I kind of feel like I'm in a rut right now. I have had some school work to catch up on, and I have been sick and just wanted to relax, so I haven't really had the motivation to play. Interestingly enough, last night I read through two or three HSNL threads for about 2 hours, and talked about them with some people over AIM. This gave me some motivation.. unfortunately, I feel like I have the strength of 100 men, but not enough time to play online, or put in serious sessions, since I still have a few midterms and then I'm going to Germany in a week.

Read some of the threads I linked. Read long discussions in MSNL about hands. Maybe go back and read some poker books that you like and see if you can comprehend them further. Watch Rounders, that's always helped me.

To review play, you just have to post or send other people hands. Get a million opinions. Make people tell you why and figure out if it's right or not. Get favorite SSNL posters and follow them around and ask them things.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, you raise to 6 OTB and bb makes it 20, you have ten-nine suited, my favorite hand. I realize there is a 5/10 rule , but if we say you are 300 dollars deep, calling is okay. So, you call with 9Ts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this should be basic, but can you please explain the above...

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In shorthanded cash games in general, the theory is that you should not be putting in more than 5% of your stack before the flop with suited connectors, or more than 10% of your stack before the flop with pocket pairs that need to hit a set in order to improve and win. These numbers changes slightly for players who are better, players who bluff more, and players who can win showdowns without hitting sets.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[Now, that doesn't look like that big of a problem, but it presents another problem. If you start doing it as a bluff, people will start checking behind, and being OOP with a hand that wants to win a mediocre pot is tough. That is, you had garbage, you check the flop, opponent checks behind, and you lead a bunch of turns- now, he can call with A-high if he thinks you'll never check the flop with a decent made hand (one pair or better, excluding very small pairs), or he can just raise you with air or float you with anything to take it away on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my Q is how do we start getting into our opponents heads online? How do we know how he will react and what he will think? Like in your example, how do we deduce that he thinks that we will never check the flop with a decent made hand there? 

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, it is not good to check a flop with a strong hand on a draw heavy board. The reason is that, if the flop is Q 7 5 with two hearts, we want to bet a wide variety of hands, villian may call with a wide variety of hands. That is, we h ave 86 for an OESD, we will likely bet because we will make a very strong hand (a straight) a strong % of the time. We will also win the hand with our betting and aggression another % of the time. The reason we win is not because we bet our draws, it is because we will also bet AA, most Qs, two pair hands, and sets on this flop. We bet our flush draws, our strong made hands, and a bunch of stuff in between, we become difficult to play against.

In general, I will say that it is "good" to bet your made hands on draw heavy boards (that is, on most levels. at the top levels, there are times it becomes correct to not so much bet your made hands on draw heavy boards a small % of the time to mix up your play, but this is umpteenth leveling at hand, I'd rather not concentrate on it). It is good because if we have three queens on that Q high flop with two hearts, we may be able to show weakness by checking, but we run the risk of having a card or cards come out to kill our action. We have top set, the turn and river could put four to a straight or four to a suit out there. So, the value of checking the flop for deception very often goes out the window since so many cards will kill our action, much more often then people catch up to a second best hand on the turn that pay us off.

Those are some simple ways to know if your opponent will check the flop with a strong hand on certain boards. Even on dry boards, too often IMO people play sets too fast. on a T 6 2 board, bets and raises on the flop is almost always a bluff (or a monster, I guess, if leveling is going on) which is the basis of the Yeti theorem (which states, basically, that no one every has a hand if they 3-bet the flop on a dry [usually paired] board).

So to answer your question, we don't know what he will think exactly. But figure out what level he's on, is he thinking like me? Is he thinking like you? Players at your level will often think like you if you're both winners (this is true more often at midstakes). Or, if you both read 2+2. So think what you'd do and why you'd do it and why you'd bet it, or why it'd be a good idea to bet it, and then out level him by doing just above that. Sometimes, with bluffing at higher stakes, so much nth level thinking is present that all that matters is who gets the last bet in.