[Benzooor]

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If I was in villains spot with 44 i'm definitely c/c rather than open shoving.

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wow that's terrible

all better hands shove, and all worse hands check behind

if you think there is value in 3betting the turn with 44, shoving >>>>>>>>>>> checking, and i think c/f > c/c, because he's never shoving worse hands

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And shoving the river with 44 only folds out hands you already beat.

Although you may be right about c/f being > c/c with 44 on the river.

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check my edit. if you, in villains shoes, think 44 is good enough to value3bet because we have like AK or A8 and call with that, then you have to shove the river because AK or A8 WILL NOT FOLD but will check behind

assuming two semi-decent players, ranges don't change between the turn and the river (barring a v v v v unlikely bluff 3bet on the turn from villain)

for villain: turn 3bet range = river shove range
for hero: turn 3bet call range = river call range

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Good edit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I 100% agree that the important decision is on the turn.