[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No one was beaten, no one was held at gun point, no one was killed.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think would have happened if the people working there had started to run?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a question with no definitive answer, although I'm sure in your mind, the answer is "They would've been gunned down".

The truth, however, is much more complicated. It would've depended on the agent's pre-determined threat level assessment prior to the raid, to the agent's determination of the involvement of low level employees, to thousands of other factors that would've been involved in answering that question that I don't know the answer to because I wasn't involved in the planning of the raid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Handwaving. You said no one was held at gunpoint. Do you think guns would have been drawn had someone run? Yes or no.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already answered that. "It depends". Go through the Academy, they'll explain the 10,000+ factors that are involved in answering that question.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you didn't answer it. You went straight to "gunning them down".

Be serious. An FBI/secret service raid. Agents come in. Someone runs. You're seriously going to tell me you don't know if a gun is going to be unholstered?

Please.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FBI agents going to a judge, taking an oath acknowledging they had knowledge of activities illegal per US code are taking place at ________ location, and _______ items are to be searched for, and if present seized, isn't even close to you robbing a bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Derail. The matter of who said it was OK to do this isn't very interesting. You wanted to talk about force. Now you want to shift over to approval. Quit squirming.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to explain the difference in the two. Obviously, it's not worth having a conversation with someone too immature to see the difference in legally serving a warrant and robbing a bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Run to the ad hominem.

Please, tell me the difference. We're talking about using force. Is a bank robbery where no gun is actually shown an event that involves a use of force or not? It's a simple question. If you want to claim a FBI raid without guns drawn does not involve force, please explain why a bank robbery without guns drawn does involve force. What is the difference between the two than makes one a forceless event and the other a forceful event? You say I can't tell the difference, you're implying that you DO know the difference, so enlighten me.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, you're not going to get anything from a teller by writing a note that says "Hi, I'd like some cash." The note will have to have a threat, or else the teller will not respond. Yet you already knew that, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is a "threat" a form of "force" in your book? Yes or no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the credibility of the threat. I say "You're dead, [censored]" after you beat me in a game of Madden. Is that a credible threat? To someone, it probably is.

I'm sure you'll attack me for not saying what you want to hear, but I won't even attempt to answer complicated questions related to police force tactics, most of which are loaded questions filled with thousands of variables, with yes or no answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want *an answer*. I'm still waiting. Assume the threat is "credible enough" to get the teller to give up the money. That should have been obvious. Quit squirming.