[Buzz]

Hi Rob – I can see why you would feel disheartened. That hand has so much promise after the flop – and then fizzle, poof - nothing. Much as I know that is going to happen sometimes, it’s still disappointing to me when it does.

The turn is a terrible card for you, a fizzle. At least it does not make someone a flush draw, but it gives you nothing and opens the way for many losing cards on the river. After this turn, you really like 12 cards (threes, fours, and fives). And at least you’re guaranteed some part of the pot with aces, eights, and deuces, another 9 cards. But then, poof, the river is one of the cards that does not enable low and makes a higher straight possible (and also makes a whole bunch of ties possible).

And as often happens, an opponent has just the right two-card combination to profit from the river at your expense.

You just didn’t have any luck here.

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If a hand stands up, it's generally a smaller pot due to lack of aggressive players to help me push pot equity advantages.

[/ QUOTE ]That could be because you always have a good starting hand and then you always have a flop fit when you stay in the hand. While that’s a good way to play, if your opponents start thinking of you as a rock, you’ll have trouble getting action when you’re in a hand.

I’m guessing you’re a solid player who pushes your edges. And your opponents will notice that after a while, see you as a rock, and tighten up against you.

I think it’s a good idea to start out playing like a rock and to know how to play like a rock. But then as you learn the game, I think you can loosen up a bit when the game is loose, and you also can play more marginal flop fits. And you can start punishing opponents who play like rocks by not giving them action. And I think at some point you have to make that adjustment.

And the period during which you’re making that adjustment can be brutal, with some zigging when you should be zagging and vice versa.

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Have other winning players, gone through poor runs?

[/ QUOTE ]I have. I back off and take some time to re-evaluate my game when it happens.

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FLO8 seems to me to be a real grind, just eeking out small edges, with very poor players able to play loose-passive with their stacks going off in rake, rather than over to my stack.

[/ QUOTE ]I don’t think that way. I’m always interested in trying to put my opponents on cards and then play accordingly. And it's simply fun for me to do that - to try to figure out what my opponents are thinking and what cards they hold.

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In FLHE I tend to have more chance to protect vulnerable marginal hands eg) top pair on flop by check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]I don’t exactly think that way. I do try to protect hands that need protection. However, it seems generally a mistake to me to hope for a check raise to do that (but not if you’re in first position and feel certain everyone will check to the player in last position, who will then bet anything).

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With the FLO8 1-1-2-2 betting structure, caller collusion is making the most horrible flop calls seem like a small price for the next card.

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting. I’ll have to think about that.

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Pre-flop: I raise with A289 precisely to buy outs for middle str8s

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting. I’ll have to think about that too.

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Flop: Nut Str8 + nut Lo draw, bet

[/ QUOTE ] Yes! What a great flop!!

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I think if Fish1 wants to go for a str8, with an 5A Lo draw, putting me on Nut Lo he ought to be raising, and hope my Lo draw gets busted, possibly gaining free card on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]Hmm. Why would he do that?

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MP2 seems to have got rewarded for very bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]That happens a lot. But that’s good for you! If your opponents never got rewarded for bad play, they’d be less likely to play badly against you. Sometimes it’s a mystery to me what my opponents are thinking, but they’re thinking something! They’re trying to beat me and trying to think of ways to do that. And the nature of the game is they have to win sometimes to keep coming back.

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Turn: Nuts + nut Lo draw, bet

[/ QUOTE ]Instead of thinking that way, consider thinking in terms of how many river cards are good for you and how many are bad. You might end up playing the same way, but I believe it’s a slightly better way to think.

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As is I realised the river card was bad, but I value bet because the pot was big, noone would put me on the 98 str8 so I'd get called by weaker hands (even pairs), and the loose players behind had 'random' hands, rather than high liklihood of nut str8.

[/ QUOTE ] No hand is an island. By occasionally making a bet like this, you’ll tend to get more action the next time you bet the nuts on the river. But, yes, if you make bad bets too often on the river, you’re throwing away more money for “advertising” than you need to expend. And by boldly betting here, if you do have a solid reputaion, you might knock out one of the multitude of hands that tie you here. (Of course that doesn't help you in this particular instance, since someone has a two-card combination that makes a higher straight).

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Furthermore if I showed weakness, MP1 bets then I end up calling MP2's raise anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. Good point.

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What happens is I miss bets, when my hand has stood up, and pay off the same when it hasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]Hard to know, isn’t it? That’s the “play good poker” aspect of Omaha-8. I think you try to put opponents on cards – but then if the pot is large enough sometimes you pay off even when you’re pretty certain you’re beaten.

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So is my thinking and way I played this sensible?

[/ QUOTE ]I think so. It’s not exactly the way I would have played it, but whatever.

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Do I keep plugging away, perhaps exercising a little more caution regarding the nuts on the river.

[/ QUOTE ] I don’t know.

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Perhaps switching over to PLO would make more sense?

[/ QUOTE ]Why would that make more sense? This particular hand, where you happen to flop the high nuts and the nut low draw, is easier to play after this flop in pot limit because you can make a huge bet to protect it. But another time, you’ll be on the other end of a pot sized bet with a hand to which you’d like to draw and you’ll wonder if the bettor has the nuts or is bluffing or semi-bluffing.

Buzz