[jstill]

welcome to the forum guys, thanks for the response... I assume most people saw the thread and thought too long didnt read... Im pretty much the King of creating threads like that lol

Olbatar I definitely wish I had said almost anything else than how I actually reacted for sure... o well tho

and Rustydagger thats definitely a sign ur coming out of the dark now that u dont think u know everything and acknowledge how much more u could learn... thats the hardest step I think for most people, or even if they know it they dont know where to go to learn more or feel like putting in the effort becuz theyre way/ strategy/method seems fine-ish.

There were a couple other things I meant to include in this first post, but it got kinda long obviously (altho I can type like a madman) and I forgot the second time around. If i think of anything really pertinent to peoples learning or points I might add them later.

The one thing I was just going to say though is that theres an odd transition that occurs as u go from donkey to shark that ties into this story.

When I first started out I wanted everyone to know how good I was, flaunting any statistics or knowledge I had of the game (even though most really werent even important to play, like knowing the odds of getting dealt AA or a PP). And if i lost or someone played bad I made it known I played the hand better and they made a bad play and just got unlucky (even though most of the time it wasnt true and I had nothing to complain about since they were actually making the correct play with their large pot odds or vs the range of hands I might have had rather than the hand I actually happened to have which is how I used to look at it).

At some point you improve become a solid winning and more importantly thinking player, and no longer feel compelled to berate the bad players or to draw attention to how great you are. U sit there with a quiet dignity and true confidence that you are a good player, you notice other players mistakes and could say them immediately and with confidence but dont. U lose a pot to a bad beat where the guy didnt have odds or should have folded against ur range but u just say nice hand or nothing and muck and dont even show ur top set. Now u are truly a shark with a rounders mentality when all the while prior thats what u had thought u were but really u were far from it, just a slightly more clever donkey than most others which is why u were still able to win.

Why is it you keep your mouth shut? Because the fact that literally noone at the table could tell me the odds of getting a PP, while pathetic, is standard. People dont bother to even learn the little things that could improve their game over night, odds preflop ect so theyre never gonna get to that 3rd level beyond that.

When people find out I make my spending money and bill money in college from online poker they always say... "Are u good at math then?" (which is actually the least stupid response I ever get... normally its but how much are u down... or do u actually make money and its like "uhhh ive paid all my bills and go out all the time u see me, how do u think I pay for it if I'm not actually up money and this is my only job?". The truth is though (and I know others have said this) thta its not the Math people struggle with its two other things 1) they never find out what theyre mistakes are or even what math is involved in the game and 2) the logic of how to apply the math is really what people struggle with. I am good at math, I have a minor in mathematics and have taken all the advanced real statistics, linear algebra and calculus courses available but thats not what I use in poker. The math I use in poker rarely goes beyond what I was capable of doing in like 2nd grade arithmatic, its learning what the math is thats involved and then spending a lifteime learning how to apply it appropriately (this is the mastery of poker). I really strongly recommend mathematics of poker to anyone who has played poker for a bit, knows the odds and wants to get to the next level.

Sadly many solid "feel players" pros even, dont know the math. If u told them theyre pot odds, they would probably make the same assumptions as u about ur opponents range yet couldnt calculate the ev (and dont ever bothering to do so). They just make their assumptions about players then do what they think is intuitively correct based on their basic understanding of pot odds.

These players are often very tough winning playres. Many feel players succeed because they are very adept (much better than the norm) about making the assumptions needed to apply the math ie what hands a villain is capable of having in wihch spots, then just intuitively chose their action occasionally defying true math for based on what their assumptions are (good math playres do this as well occassionally obviously with glass decisions since they dont always do out the ev calc expressly while playing esp multitabling). But they can check it later and see if theyre play was truly correct based on what they thought their opponents ranges were which can be invaluable. Obviously the feel players dont defy the math that much more often based on their assumptions though or else they wouldnt win (assuming their assumptions are often close to true or else again they wouldnt win). But if they could do the little math behind it in addition to being great at reading hands/ player tendencies it would only improve their game, it certainly wouldnt hinder it at all. ZJ had a good thread once about the gap in many feel players subconscious and conscious learning and the luck in learning a while back and why they can still succeed.

I used to think of myself as a feel player or reads players. I didnt like online because I couldnt see the players (and I thought u couldnt win if people didnt fold lol I was such a donk). I had read a few books supersystem helmuths theory of poker even actually and Caros book. I heard someone rip on Caros tells book before but it really is invaluable theres no reason not to read it if u ever play live. Because I thought I was great I didnt improve as quickly as I could have perhaps. I had alot of success playing around campus and won far more than my fair shrae of small buy in multi table tournaments and in home games aroudn campus. I thought I was a rounder because it paid for all my beer money but really I was missing so much... I still am I'm sure [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] switching over to NL I feel like I'm pretty much starting over again (not really but its a new puzzle to tinker with) which is always exciting/ motivating.