[Ben K]

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I understand where you are going with this and many of your other points. It seems to me that your optimistic vision for religion is a slow melding or refinement (I'm purposely trying not to disparage this or call it a 'regression' or anything like that) towards secular humanism.

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I'm really not sure where this ecumenical dialogue will take us vhawk. What I see when I look at the broad sweep of history is a long, often painful, coming together of humanity. The process has often involved the breaking down of doors rather than waiting to be invited in. Perhaps if we were better guests we would find ourselves invited in more often. And perhaps we could be better hosts when doing the inviting as well.

So what I see in the future is more coming together by way of conciliation rather than confrontation. I think this is inevitable. But who knows. I wish I could live long enough to see it happen. I suspect what eventually emerges would have pleasant suprises in it for both of us if we could be there to see it. On the other hand, we might be NotReady for it. Let's hope love prevails.


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I don't have anything AGAINST subjective experience, I have subjective experiences all the time, I just see no real reason to accept it as valid, and I know my own subjective experience is flawed in predictable ways. IOW, subjective experience may very well be a valid method of ascertaining Truth, but I don't see how its necessary. Why do I need it (or religion) to get to where we both want to get to?


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You can escape religion vhawk - and many would say, thank god for that. But you can't escape subjective experience. I don't think I've ever argued that you should necessarily find religious interpretations to be most suitable for you personally. My arguments have only been to defend those who do find them suitable. I suspect that if you were somehow manipulated into investing yourself in a religious interpretation it would likely be detrimental to you in some ways. It would not really ring true for you and when push came to shove you would find little real comfort in it. You have to be true to yourself.

But you will continue to live with your subjective experiences. Your sense of awe at the beauty and majesty of the Universe. Your sense of wonder at the laws of physics that make it work. Your amazement over the intricacies of biological function. The sense of intrigue in the mystery of existence. The disconnect with your past in the grief over loss of a loved one, or birth of your child. Everything involved with being human including love, compassion, empathy, character, etc.

As time goes on you may develop your own inner poetic interpretations for these experiences. Who knows what you might come up with. If you ever need a religious one, let's hope one is available that suits you. Or maybe you will come up with one of your own. Or maybe it will be something neither of us can conceive at this moment. At any rate, I assume you have the one that suits you for now. It's not my intention to trample your garden.


PairTheBoard

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This could be the most beautiful post ever.

I think it may acknowledge the angry behind the 'angry atheist'. In response to arguments about the existence of god, the theists deny the atheist the dignity of having a meaning to life, love and the other nice things by claiming they have the key and there's only one.