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Affirmative Action is bad for those it displaces
• Costs them jobs/money/opportunity/prestige
• Displaced groups are not just white males. Asians often do not count as a minority. White women are not preferred to black women, etc…
• Leads to more racism
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The argument that affirmative action will negatively affect certain groups is not disputable. However, my argument is that these impacts are justified based on previous discrimination and are a “necessary evil” in the struggle for equality. Even though some people may develop racist feelings because of affirmative action, what is the alternative? I would prefer a system where the marginalized become the benefactors of “racist” policies to one where the marginalized remain marginalized because of previous racist policies. A few years down the line, hopefully such policies will no longer be necessary. The reasons for affirmative action are things that you just hope people will eventually understand, but in the meantime it is the only way to solve the problems of representation and opportunity in the system.
When you mention Asians not counting as a minority, you are misinterpreting the target of affirmative action. Affirmative action is directed towards
under-represented groups. It is not directed at groups just because they are not white or males.
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Affirmative Action is bad for the agencies that practice it
• Institutions end up with less qualified candidates
• Affirmative action is expensive
• Affirmative action causes turnover
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Having less qualified candidates is something that is not guaranteed. If you’ll refer to the study that I cited earlier about the fake applicants that were equal in all regards except for their skin color, you’ll know that some decisions are not based on qualification, but on race/gender. When racism/sexism has a role in these agencies, qualifications sometimes mean very little. However, again I will be focusing on the argument that even if you are right and these harms result from affirmative action, they are still necessary.
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Affirmative Action is bad for the minorities it claims to help
• Borderline candidates are more likely to crash and burn. Many times better to have success at a “lower” level than to fail after being pushed beyond ones limits
• Candidates who didn’t “need” affirmative action are often questioned – only got their positions because of being black (even though they were qualified).
• Affirmative Action promotes laziness and a poor work ethic
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Affirmative action won’t “push” anyone; it merely gives them opportunities that are often otherwise unavailable.
Also, cross-apply my arguments from my original post about this being key to allowing these groups to break into elite status. Also, apply the argument about these groups having more incentives for a harder work ethic.
I have grouped the following 2 arguments:
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Craig makes an important error early in the post. He is quick to group “whites” and “blacks” as a collective group without realizing the individuality they are made of. You cannot have a forest without a tree. Lumping an immigrant from Sweden in the same category as a slaveowner as someone who “benefited” from racism does not make sense. “Whites” or “Blacks” do not benefit from anything. Individuals do.
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To address Craig’s points-
Have whites benefited from Affirmative Action?
Craig starts off with an immediate mistake- grouping all members of a race as a collective unit, rather than treating them as a collection of individuals. Certainly some whites have benefited from racist policies. Many did not. By grouping a recent immigrant from Sweden in the same category as a direct beneficiary, such as a factory worker in 1938 is disingenuous.
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I think this is a bit of a cheap-shot. Obviously I understand that individuals of the same race/gender are different. For the context of the affirmative action, however, you
are dealing with groups. People are discriminated against based on these groups and that’s precisely the problem.
Policies that really analyzed individuals would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to develop and enforce. It’s much easier to deal with the group as a whole and it makes sense because the disparities between these groups are vast.
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Craig’s next mistake is to call such racist programs as “Affirmative Action”. Although I believe Affirmative Action to be a racist program, not all racist programs are Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action, by the definition he agreed to, is a program that seeks to redress past discrimination. Is Craig trying to imply that these racist laws were enacted to try to redress for some past discrimination that blacks carried out against whites?
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Whether or not we call it “affirmative action” is of minimal importance. What is important is the fact that there have been a variety of policies that have created an uneven playing field between these groups. Therefore, counter-policies should be able to level this playing field. Not doing so makes it very difficult for this gap, which was created through racist policies stemming from the government, to close.
I feel that this argument was severely under-covered. The merits of the argument still exist, you have merely claimed that I don't recognize individuality and that my application of the term “affirmative action” was incorrect.
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The need for Affirmative Action in the workplace:
Craig doesn’t make himself very clear in this point, so I will give him a chance to clarify. Is the fact that certain groups of people are more likely to be unemployed an injustice in itself, or is it only a sign that discrimination might be occurring. Is (potential) discrimination the problem, or is unequal results the problem? I would assume that Craig is arguing the former. If this is the case, he is clearly assuming the only explanation to such differences is due to discrimination. He instantly discounts other causes, especially cultural or genetic differences.
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I actually am arguing that both are problems. Discrimination itself is bad and it is also bad that there are significant differences in representation in society.
Affirmative action helps negate discrimination and the potential for it by giving a boost to those that would be affected by discrimination. This in turn helps solve for representation discrepancies.
Your point is that differences in representation are due to other things than discrimination, like “cultural or genetic differences.” I agree, but it is important to understand that such differences were created by previous instances of discrimination. For example, some black students may not be as qualified for a certain position because generations of racism have left them at a significant disadvantage in terms of the resources they had available to them. Without affirmative action, these artificially-created differences will remain in society, the leg-up provided by affirmative action is necessary to break this cycle.
It is also important to stress that affirmative action doesn’t make up for significant differences among candidates. It only acts as a boost; it doesn’t guarantee a job or admission. So these other differences that you note will still be evaluated with affirmative action.
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The most obvious difference is brought up in the evidence he presents- that women earn $523,000 less in a lifetime due to disparities. The 76-cent myth has been told so many times it has become a fact to many people. This statistic is measured by taking the median income of all working women and men who work at least 35 hours a week at any job. It does not account for experience, overtime, or even the same job! Although many feminists have argued otherwise, study after study has shown that men and women are different. Men and women are motivated by many different factors. Women are more likely than men to take time off of work to raise children. Men tend to be attracted to more dangerous (and high paying) jobs.
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First, the ACLU article which I cited this information from,
link, states, “This pay gap exists even within the same occupation” and that women “earned only 73% of the wages earned by men.”
Differences in pay between men/women are something that I am not too familiar with, which is due to the fact that my arguments for affirmative action focus on the opportunities available itself, not pay differences within the same job. Additionally, I think the racial equality goals are more relevant today.
I find it interesting that you mentioned that men and women are different. My question to you would be: why do you think these differences exist? Are women naturally less qualified or naturally less driven? Is it possible that social stigmas and perceptions of how women are “supposed to be” have deterred them from competing with men?
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Different cultures are also motivated by different factors. Many Asian cultures push children extremely hard in regards to education. Many of these children are thought to be embarrassments to the family if they do not obtain a prestigious career, such as a Doctor or Lawyer. There are also significant cultural differences even within a race. Caribbean blacks that immigrate to the United States have a much higher average income (despite being immigrants from countries many times poorer than the United States) than native born blacks. In one study, foreign-born blacks in Queens had an average income of $61,151 while native-born blacks had an average income of $45,684.
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I will concede that cultural differences exist, I have never stated otherwise. However, many of these differences have resulted from or at least been effected by previous discrimination, as I have alluded to previously.
Your point about Caribbean blacks versus native blacks actually proves what I’m trying to say: that U.S. discrimination and racist policies against blacks (which foreign-born blacks would have avoided some of) artificially creates these differences.
Additionally, I think you are a bit hypocritical here because you seem to be grouping people collectively like you accused me of doing.
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The study he presents seems to be very subjective in judging how the candidates are truly “equal”. I would like to see more information about how the study was conducted before I can comment further on it.
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The following is a quote from the National Urban Institute (
link):
“While traditional statistical analysis of earnings and employment differences by race and ethnicity is not well-suited to identifying discrimination (since any observed disparities by race might simply be caused by differences in the characteristics of individuals for which we cannot control in our data), a number of other analytical techniques have recently strengthened our belief that discrimination persists. For instance, studies in which matched pairs of minority and white applicants with apparently equal credentials are sent to apply for jobs routinely show white applicants getting more interviews and job offers than either black or Hispanic applicants (Fix and Struyk, 1994). This evidence is consistent with the notion mentioned earlier that observed differences between blacks and whites in education and test scores account for most of their differences in wages, but not in employment rates. Thus, discrimination against African-Americans may be most severe at the hiring stage, with less bias occurring in the wage and promotion process once employment is attained.
Other studies indicate that not all employers discriminate equally. Instead, the worst offenders appear to be small establishments, who mostly hire informally (and therefore more subjectively in their evaluations of applicant quality) and who are less visible to law enforcement agencies and potential plaintiffs. Also, employers in suburban areas that predominantly serve white customers appear to discriminate against blacks and Hispanics in hiring for jobs that involve significant customer contact (Holzer, 1998; Holzer and Ihlanfeldt, 1998).”
That quote is perfect because it specifically addresses your point that other cultural differences exist. In spite of these differences, the article concludes that discrimination plays a role in the hiring process.
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Craig assumes his conclusion- that discrimination exists, therefore it must be compensated by giving bonus points. If an organization acknowledges that the person screening or deciding is either consciously or unconsciously biasing the candidates based on race, it seems like a more logical solution is to find someone else to try to conduct the interviews.
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This seems like it would be difficult to implement. Nobody is going to want to admit to being racist or discriminatory, so firms likely won’t voluntarily change the people conducting the interviews.
Moreover, even if that was possible/successful, it would not solve for historical instances of discrimination/racism that causes the artificial differences between the groups. That’s another reason why the “bonus points” are necessary.
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The need for Affirmative Action in College Admissions
College admissions are a much easier nut to crack. Only elite colleges rely on interviews to determine a student’s admission. The admissions process, if race were not mentioned on the application, would never be known to those doing the admissions.
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This is the “color-blind” approach that I mentioned. You never address the disparities that exist between some communities and groups. Being “color-blind” and evaluating a person who came from a project and went to a horrible school on the same level as an privileged, affluent, private school grad isn’t “fair,” which is what the “color-blind” approach seeks to be. Keep in mind that these differences resulted from previous “affirmative action” policies enacted by the government.
Recognizing that there are significant barriers that were placed by previous discrimination is important. Since history has given them this disadvantage, affirmative action makes sense because it helps level the playing field.
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His first point claims that Affirmative Action is a good thing because it creates “proper” representation. The goal of Affirmative Action is to artificially set the ratios of races in admissions. It is no surprise it was successful in this goal, when the “weights” various races were given intentionally tried to arrive at this. When race-based admissions stopped in California and the admission rate of blacks dropped, it is merely pointing out how much extra benefit blacks were getting under the program. What he doesn’t mention is that the group that took over these spots was not whites, but mostly Asians. Asians made up 33% of students at UC-Berkeley in 2000, while only 36% of the students are white. The population of California was 11% Asian and 60% white.
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I obviously agree that affirmative action changes the representation at schools. Unless I’m misinterpreting this argument, I don’t see how this is a reason why affirmative action is bad. The issue at hand is whether or not altering representation is
good, not whether or not altering representation occurs with affirmative action. Reasons why affirmative action is good are found in other parts of this debate.
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The next argument Craig presents is very weak. It states that there is only a small decrease in the likelihood of a white student being admitted by using Affirmative Action. Since there is only a small chance that a white student is not admitted, this is a negligible cost. However, for those who are on the border, the chance that they are unable to attend the school of their choice is now enormous. Try telling it to the well-qualified candidate that was denied admission so that a candidate who has different skin pigmentation with much lesser qualifications that it’s “not that big of a cost”.
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Try telling someone who participated in the job study that the discrepancy between race and chance of landing a job “isn’t a big deal.”
Try telling a black student from an impoverished neighborhood who had few resources and went to a horrible school who competed with the kid who grew up in a mansion and took SAT classes at his elite, private high school that his struggle wasn't “a big deal.”
We’re both talking about discrimination. The only difference is that the discrimination I’m referring to deals with under-represented, marginalized groups. Your group is the group that was benefited by previous racist policies and is now positioned higher. At least the discrimination that would take place with affirmative action would eliminate the gap between these groups rather than reinforcing it.
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Craig makes another jump that is factually incorrect. Just because you are admitted into a college does not mean you are going to succeed. A candidate who is not otherwise qualified to gain admission to a school is much more likely to struggle or even fail after being pushed beyond his limits. A student who may have been a success at Good State University may struggle tremendously and may not even graduate at Ivy University. To assume this student, who was unable to qualify on his own merits, will be just as likely to succeed as someone who would be able to qualify.
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Refer to my responses on this subject that were made earlier.
To reiterate, affirmative action won’t necessarily “push” anyone; I disagree with your use of the term. It has to do with providing the opportunity.
Additionally, breaking into the elite lifestyle is heavily dependent on going to elite universities. Also, apply the arguments about these people being more driven and harder workers because they are determined to rise socially.
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Why a “color-blind” approach is inadequate:
Craig claims that racism and gender based discrimination are wrong. However, the idea that it should be counteracted with more racism is seems to only further the problems presented. The solution to racism should not be more racism, but an effort to decrease racism. Attitudes and social norms cannot be forced without leading to resentment or punishing innocents. Craig does not argue for equal opportunity but equal results.
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If you are going to suggest that there is a solution to racism, perhaps you could give more details on your plan. Simply advocating that my plan is fallacious without offering one of your own means that by default you are advocating the status quo, which is not adequately addressing this discrimination or racism.
Also, diversity is important and the state/universities/businesses ought to promote it.
Again, I stress why differences in resources and the impacts of historical discrimination mean that a “color-blind” approach is bad. Without solving for this, it is impossible to solve for equal opportunity because these resources directly impact one’s ability to get into a school or get a job. This was the point of this argument which you either misinterpreted or ignored. Therefore, the “racism” that comes with affirmative action is necessary.
Now I would like to recap what I believe to be some of the most important issues so far in this debate:
1) The immediate effects of affirmative action are necessary, even if it means discriminating against a white student or costing a business financially.
2) Whites (males in particular) have been the benefactors of historical policies and stigmas that have artificially established them above other groups. This structure has remained in-tact and will in the status quo. Affirmative action allows for penetration into these hierarchies while negating discrimination that stems from these established structures.
3) While cultural differences do exist between different groups, many of these differences can be attributed to artificial shaping.
4) A difference of resources amongst groups means that a “color-blind” approach is unjust. Affirmative action gives these groups a “boost” which helps them play the bad hand that life and our historical practices dealt them.
5) While it is easy to for some to reject affirmative action for being discriminatory, these same critics often lack alternatives that solve the uneven playing field.