[RayBornert]

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matrix,

instead of you lying to me to get me to be a "good faith"
player while your actual intentions are to be "bad faith"
due to potential edge from tracking, botting, teaming,


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Lying to you??

thats a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Ray forget about the bot business your calling is at the Comedy Store.

If you could point out where I have lied to you that would be interesting.

I'll get an edge over the opposition any way I can as long as it's within the T&C's of the sites I play at.

So yes I track my opponents - and I participate in strategy forums here - and I frequently look through hands my better opponents have played against me and try to incorporate someof those plays into my game.

Yes the server frequently gives me access to information that I wouldn't normally get (mucked hands at showdown) and I use this information to the best of my abilities.

To be honest tho the information the HUD gives me I find most useful for table selection, most stats need a large sample to converge to anything meaningful and I can judge more accurately how loose/tight a certain player is playing a particular session after sitting for 3-4 orbits now in any case.

However thats as far as it goes - I don't run a bot and have no interest in running one, and I certainly don't cheat by colluding with people and sharing my hole card info as easy as it would be to do this via AIM or Skype or something similar.

I want to beat the game because of my own skill - I play mostly for fun and beer money, if I can advance my skill to the point where I can make $50/hr+ consistantly so that I could pursue poker as a means of support for a while instead of "working" so much the better.

Cheating at low stakes levels would be like following a walkthrough to win at Final Fantasy - pointless.

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you dont have to promise me anything.
i dont have to promise you anything.

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You got that bit right.

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if we both agree to this then we instantly
become "good faith" opponents on a level field.

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If we bot agree to that then I am agreeing that collusion is OK.

I am never going to agree that collusion is OK. I am aware it happens - I am aware that it's easy to do - I am aware that it takes a degree of skill to actually use the extra information you get to develop an edge for HE (Omaha is a little easier in this regard)

But I don't have to like it - and I certainly don't have to support it.

I am not a "bad faith player" - if the poker sites banned tracking opponents tomorrow - I would stop tracking my opponents.

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matrix,

everything you're saying here could be 100% true
but i have no way to know that. you owe me proof.
the standard site t&c does not make us friends.
you cannot get me to trust you just because you
claim to obey a site t&c that cannot be secured.
i want proof.

i want to play honest holdem because in that game
i'm not forced to trust you; all of your actions
are, by definition, honest.

i want to play honest holdem because in that game
i'm not forced to trust the site operator; he can
collude with an opponent sure - but not without
detection. he can run house player/bots sure
but as long as the game server cant collude
with his props then its me and mine against
him and his and i'm ok with that.
the field is level for one and all.

no terms and conditions like this have ever
existed on the net even though this is the
only type of game that can be secured on
the net. why has this not happened?

ray bornert