[NajdorfDefense]

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I understand why poker and to a lesser extent counting at blackjack might be good experience for a trader (not sure about I-banking). Why craps, though? Doesn't that pretty much just show you don't understand probability?

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I would reply that it shows you are able to understand and combine knowledge of probability, expectation, money mgmt and bankroll skills, while also understanding it is a negative EV game, *but* the best EV table game in the casino combined with the ability to have fun and be social, as opposed to the plain nerdy-counts-cards- at bj-but-maybe can't-talk/work-with-others Nit mentality.

Besides, anyone can say they can count down a 6-deck shoe perfectly, not like they will test you during an interview, read for 3 minutes on how it works and you can fake expertise, a deep understanding of craps [and other -EV casino games] gives you chance to show that you understand variance and risk mgmt, etc, like to live a little, are social, what kind of person you are, are you a don't bettor, do you make the horribly bad craps bets, etc.

Again, I had them all on there, no one wanted to talk about counting cards except one firm, 90% of them want to talk about how to play craps, or great craps runs they had -- then you're foot in the door a step up on the other 499 undergrads trying to claw past you. 90% of traders I've worked with on Wall St have played/still play craps - floor traders, pit traders, fx traders, futures traders, forwards traders, swap traders, option traders. It's like a club, and OP/you want to be in it, so that's jmho.

If you're interviewing for a PM job at a deep-value shop, I'd just put poker on there and *not* craps. Like most things, it may depend on the situation.

Look, these people interview dozens of people a day, 500 per year per school they cover in some cases. I covered the SE/ and historically black colleges for my I-bank. I [and everyone else] figures you can DCF, you can model, you're not a lying thief, you work hard, etc, but that's hard to prove in 30 mins. What people really, really WANT is someone who is personable and fun to work with, combined with smarts [and looks] if possible - talk about the BCS, talk about postmodern French Lit, talk about poker, Beethoven, make yourself stand out. {Bonus hint - a listing of poker, skiing, running marathons will make you one of every 2 resumes I see. No joke. No, sailing/cycling doesn't do it either. Banks get 3-500 of resumes per school often, recruiting teams may cover 7-10 schools or more.}

Or you have no shot. Plain and simple. When I started working in downtown NYC I got hired as 1 of 4 analysts in my I-banking dept, I dunno what the # of applicants was, but it could easily have been 4000, or much more.

When I moved to top 5 I-bank #3, I was given the chance to start my own P+L within that dept for an under-served and somewhat unique set of bank's clients. I increased profits by 600% in less than 3 years taking virtually zero market or vol risk [obvs this means lots of hedging]. Within 2 years I had the 2nd most profits and highest quality revenues on the desk.

Perhaps subconsciously pitching myself as the 'careful, cautious trader' who *hates* to lose bank's/OPM at work, but likes to let loose at the Mirage craps table every now and then with his own money rang very true and real to the MD's that interviewed and hired me. I don't really know. They'd rather have that than the cowboys who sank Sumitomo and Granite and Amaranth, I can vouch for that.

To be perfectly honest, it doesn't matter a whit if you start at Mitsui, or Wachovia, or some 3rd-tier trading shop, the cream almost always rises to the top, eventually, in this industry. Smart, savvy, sober, consistently good-to-great, hardworking [which can mean 95+ hours a week and 3 days off a year including weekends] employees are a lot harder to come by than you'd think. It's not a sprint, so don't stress too much about tying the knot with your 'dream firm.' My resume gets me in for an interview anywhere, but that's as far as it goes. After that, it's how you interview and fit with your desired firm.

Best of luck to you.

Naj

In life, like craps, luck plays a much larger role than you may think. Maybe that was it...