Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

Typical live 3/6. Villain 1 is a young LAG (though sometimes turns inexplicably passive); villain 2 is an older guy I've played with many times, somewhat LP preflop, can be smart and tricky post. Both have seen me donk an unimproved AK from EP a couple of times. Everyone else in the hand donates.

5 limpers, I raise A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] from SB. BB and all call (14 small bets).

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, 1 call, V1 raises, 1 cold call, V2 (button) 3-bets (23 small bets).

At worst I'm up against 44, QT, maybe Q4s or T4s. AQ, KQ, QJ, KJ are likely.

1) Flop donk terrible?

2) Is a cap insane? There will be either 29 or 31 SB (depending on cold caller), so I'm getting 10:1 when I only need ~9:1 (I think).

3) Assuming a cap, is there any turn I could conceivably not bet? Does this make a fold necessary?

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

Cap is spewage. Call.

Assuming you can do it for one bet you can chase to the river. I think. Somebody want to help me with that?

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

Just call the 3 bets. It'll probably get capped anyway, but there's a chance you could get out for just 1 bet.

You have 4 jacks to make the nuts, 1 of which doesn't put a flush draw on board and another of which gives you the nut draw.

On the turn I don't really see why you'd bet unless you improved with a club or the jack. You're going to be five handed, so you need a solid 20% shot to go out there betting; a fourth club gives you more than that, but I'd still check and evaluate.

Edit: I don't really like the flop donk here. This looks like a standard "check and raise a bet from late position" kind of hand to me, or even a "huh...two broadways flopped, i don't have a pair, and it's seven handed...I bet I'm behind...." check and call kind of hand.

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I don't really like the flop donk here. This looks like a standard "check and raise a bet from late position" kind of hand to me, or even a "huh...two broadways flopped, i don't have a pair, and it's seven handed...I bet I'm behind...." check and call kind of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, very much.

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

I like the flop donk. In my experience, it punishes passive players trying to slow play TP when you get lucky on the turn or river. This obviously didn't happen here, but at least you get a range of hands to put on V1 and V2.

I'm calling the 2 bets on the flop. You get more info if V1 decides to cap it (based on the behavior of V1 and V2 on the turn). You capping changes this.

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

Flop donk isn't great here. You've got a smart tricky opponent and a LAG in, and their preflop calling range makes it very likely someone picked up top pair here. You're setting yourself up to get raised even by people who may figure they are behind but need to protect their hand or buy a free card.

If you didn't have the draw to the nut straight and the back door flush, I'd like the donk a lot better, because you could fold to serious action. Seeing as how you really want to see a turn card here, just check and call (or maybe c/r if the bet comes from the right spot and you decide this is a spot to get tricky, though once again I don't like that when you've got so many outs).

Do not bet this turn unless you improve to at least the flush draw. The pot is huge, and while that makes it worth taking chances to take it down, the action has shown that at least one of your opponents is committed. With legitimate chances to hit a hand, you can't risk getting raised off your odds.

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

flop bet is 100% fine. now call the 3bet. capping is -ev because of your position, not because of pot odds.

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

A cap isn't insane. Even if you were always up against a set, you have about 16% equity. If everyone calls, you need 20% to be a value raise. You are occassionally going to win this pot with your overcard draws, but it will be rare.

I like the lead, and I would tend to just call the 3-bet.

Even if I cap the flop, I'm not sure leading the turn is the best option unless we pick something up (like a pair or the flush draw). We would really like to get by with one bet on the turn. I think we get raised too often on the turn to lead.

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

Betting or checking really doesn't matter very much here in a passive game.

I check.

Re: Live 3/6, AKs SB, big flop action
 

hamlet, you're missing the two key points of:

1) we're in a bad position
2) we don't have anything