I hate Pocket Kings
 

Hello, I'm fairly new to the game (been playing about 6 months) and my experience is mostly home games, online and two live tournaments (placed 6th/45 and 11th/45).

So I have a question for you guys and gals. Obviously, KK is a monster hand but it seems like every time I get them, I lose with them, and it always seems to be the same way. An Ace comes on the flop and I lose to the dummy who played A6 offsuit from 2nd position.

Here's an example of what I mean; this happened in my last tournament and it seems to happen a lot: I'm in maybe Middle/Early Position with KK with a raise in front of me (the dumb A6 guy) of about 2xBB, so I re-raise to a little more than the size of the pot. He calls.

The flop comes 2c 8s 5d. Looks like a pretty safe flop for me and all I have to worry about is a set. So, he makes a bet of about half the pot and I raise about twice that and he calls. The next card is the Ac. He makes a bet of about the size of the pot and I call. River is 2s. He checks and I check. And of course I lose the pot.

Did I do something wrong? Should I have gone all-in or way over the top on the flop or something?

It just seems to me that EVERY time I have KK, an Ace comes on the flop or turn and I lose to someone holding A6 A7 or something. How do you guys play KK?

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

Many people have felt what you are currently feeling, when they are first starting out. You feel like you have a big hand and you absolutely positively have to win with it... and then you lose. It happens twice, three times... so you feel like it always happens. The fact is.. it does not always happen.

Everyone has lost big pots with Kings, even Aces...but I promise you over the long run (keep playing), you will win with them much more than you lose with them - considering you are playing correctly.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

Yea, my experiences aren't going to stop me from playing KK, and I wouldn't fold every time there's an Ace on the board. I was just wondering what steps I can take to maximize my winning with KK when there's an Ace on the board.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

Not too much. Sklansky wrote about playing big pairs in Hold 'Em for Advanced Players. If you raise with a big pair (JJ, QQ, KK) and someone else shows strength before the flop... and an overcard comes on the flop and they bet, the safest play is just to let the hand go. Some may think this is weak-tight, but in my experience most of the time an overcard is there, your beat.

Would like to hear what others think about this.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

You played fine and he played bad and got lucky but you want him doing that every time.

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Not too much. Sklansky wrote about playing big pairs in Hold 'Em for Advanced Players. If you raise with a big pair (JJ, QQ, KK) and someone else shows strength before the flop... and an overcard comes on the flop and they bet, the safest play is just to let the hand go. Some may think this is weak-tight, but in my experience most of the time an overcard is there, your beat.

Would like to hear what others think about this.

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Once I see an overcard I am slowing right down. If I'm first to act I may continuation bet but any resistance and I need a good reason not to fold.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

I think the best way to "maximize your winnings with KK when there's an A on the board" is by minimizing you losses. Im not saying fold every time but morons do like to play ANY Ace.

I would usually C-bet a flop with 1 over. But only against one player. With multiple players I am probably check/folding unless I have a good idea that the bettor is doing something tricky.

Actually saw a really good fold with KK. 2/5 game KK raises to 50 gets 3 callers. Flop came AAA and KK check folded to a bet and call. JJ bet and A4 just called.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

KK will lose to A4 suited, if you are all in before the flop, about 33% of the time.

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Kh 1139308 66.54 566028 33.06 6968 0.41 0.667
Ac 4c 566028 33.06 1139308 66.54 6968 0.41 0.333


KK will lose to A4s on a 2c 8s 5d if you were all-in on the flop 33% of the time (now he has 3 overcards and 4-gut shots for a total of 7 outs over the turn and river cards). He also has a backdoor flush draw in this example.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8s 2c 5d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Kh 657 66.36 333 33.64 0 0.00 0.664
Ac 4c 333 33.64 657 66.36 0 0.00 0.336

And on just the turn, with his seven outs, he has about a 14% chance to hit an out on the next card.

So, I would say that in your example, you will avoid a bad turn card about 6 times out of 7.

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Did I do something wrong?

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No

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Obviously, KK is a monster hand but it seems like every time I get them, I lose with them, and it always seems to be the same way. An Ace comes on the flop and I lose to the dummy who played A6 offsuit from 2nd position.


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You are probably remembering the times you lost more clearly than the times you won. As I showed above, you are going to lose to an Ax hand about 1 out of every 3 times you play if you play to the river. That should be expected. The good news is that if you consistently get your money in as a 67% favorite, or better, then you will eventually make money.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

There's basically nothing wrong with your play but you were up against a very loose player. You have to adjust here by betting more when you do raise him. Depending on how big your stacks are, this might mean getting it all-in either pf or on that flop.

For example, you say he bet 2xBB so the pot is 3.5BB. A normal minimum raise of his 2xBB is three times so 6xBB (that's usually the minimum. after you play with a guy like this for a while, get a feel for how much he will call and bet that). So say he calls and the pot is now 13.5xBB. he bets half the pot say 7xBB and the pot is now 20.5xBB. I would come over the top all-in with about 80xBB or less.

Let's look at the reasoning for this. If you make another raise of three times his bet that's 21xBB so if he calls the pot will be 62.5xBB and you will have 59xBB left behind. This is a very bad situation and in almost all cases you will need to commit to this pot. So you might as well move in while you are ahead.

If an A came on the flop and he bet half pot, I would probably call this loose player. The idea now would be to get to showdown as cheaply as possible so don't raise or bet any more. If you call his flop bet with an A on board, even a loose player would check the turn unless he paired his 6.

When I play KK now, I try to get it all-in pf or all-in on a non-A flop that is fairly dry. However, if the stacks are very deep, this is not usually possible and that's why it takes skill to play deep stacks.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

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I think the best way to "maximize your winnings with KK when there's an A on the board" is by minimizing you losses.

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This post beat me to the punch.

I'll just add that most people get way too loose when they have a big hand.

KK and even AA are good for getting all in pre-flop against a lower pair. Once the flop hits, they can cost you alot of money if your not careful.

Re: I hate Pocket Kings
 

If you're playing online, you can keep track of these sorts of things with tracking software. My stats show me running a little bad with AA, average with KK, a little good with QQ, horribly with JJ, but insanely good with 66. Over time, I expect all these to even out. Your stats will probably do the same. Harder to keep track in live games, but unless you're playing horribly or being cheated, it's going to even out eventually. Tracking software has let me know when I'm running bad and when I'm running good, and see how it all evens out over time, which is very good for my emotional state trying to stay away from tilt when I feel like I took (or did take) a few rough beats.