400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

So, I'm not saying I'm HERO here, but this hand comes from our little study group and I think some interesting thoughts go into this hand though.


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $428.80
BB: $869.30
UTG: $1,248.10
Hero (CO): $599.60
BTN: $407.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $54.00</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $38.00


<font color="blue"> Hero has been active and makes a standard raise and Villain is 26/22 and SUPER aggressive... he 3bets. Villain has been 3 betting a LOT and has shown down a couple of huge bluffs in the last 30 mins. Therefore, is it reasonable to think that HERO can call and outplay, in position, postflop? Is calling the 3bet, in position, bad here being 150BB deep? </font>

Flop: ($112) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $72.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $255.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero ???</font>

<font color="blue"> On a 2 flush board, what is he c/ring here? The general concensus of our group was that he could be doing this with KK+, TT, AQ, AK or air and that's about it. If that's the case, isn't HERO way ahead of his range and therefore, the best play would be to raise no? FPS or well-thought out? </font>

I just thought this was a really interesting, non-standard hand as opposed to the run-of-the-mill "I have AA and got 3-bet preflop, is it better to 4-bet or call" yadda yadda yadda stuff.

Thoughts fellas?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

why bet the flop?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not bet the flop?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

do better hands fold? do worse hands call? will you get bluffed off the best hand ever? Does your hand need protection?

So I ask again, why bet the flop?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
do better hands fold? do worse hands call? will you get bluffed off the best hand ever? Does your hand need protection?

So I ask again, why bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain has shown a propensity to 3bet light/bluff. That said, is he really checking a better hand here, giving us the opportunity to check behind w/ a FD or other hand and miss extracting value?

Can villain c/r a hand other than air and the above listed hands? Therefore, we give villain an opportunity to bluff at us and for us to pick it off?

Too FPS or reasonable? Just trying to think outside the box here is all....

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

Against light 3-bettors I've begun 4-betting more and with reasonable succes.

Some of these light 3-bettors are so FOS and/or just chicken out when you don't fold or call.


You basically turn any hand except AA/KK/AK into a bluff, but against the right opponent it's a profitable play.

In my regular game there's a handfull of players I abuse this way with frequent 4-bets against their 3-bets and squeezes.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against light 3-bettors I've begun 4-betting more and with reasonable succes.

Some of these light 3-bettors are so FOS and/or just chicken out when you don't fold or call.


You basically turn any hand except AA/KK/AK into a bluff, but against the right opponent it's a profitable play.

In my regular game there's a handfull of players I abuse this way with frequent 4-bets against their 3-bets and squeezes.

[/ QUOTE ]

and Axs in particular can be 4 bet shoved too or 4 bet and call shove

there's a long discussion in CTS' blog and probably a few threads on here

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against light 3-bettors I've begun 4-betting more and with reasonable succes.

Some of these light 3-bettors are so FOS and/or just chicken out when you don't fold or call.


You basically turn any hand except AA/KK/AK into a bluff, but against the right opponent it's a profitable play.

In my regular game there's a handfull of players I abuse this way with frequent 4-bets against their 3-bets and squeezes.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's my point here. Can he really c/r here seeing as HERO called IN POSITION, therefore unless he has a monster, he has got to worry, unless he's doing this with air (ie. AQ or AK)?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

Well if you bet then it should done with a plan for what to do if c/r'ed. In this situation if villain is behind with a big ace then I'd prefer to check behind on the flop.

I agree that the 3-bet followed by a c/r is usually a bluff/draw so I think that if you bet it sbould be with the intention of getting the money AI and being ok with that.

Still I prefer to check behind, if na A hits we stack AK, if a 4 hits we stack overpairs, the worse thing that happens is we give KQ or something like that a chance to catch up. Another good quality to checking behind is that when villain is playing TT+ weird we keep the pot smallern while behind.

All in all I think more good things happen when checking than when betting, but with the right read bet/calling isn't bad, I don't think I'd bet/fold here though.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

fold preflop. Ax is a horrible hand to call a 3bet with. Only call this 3bet if you think he 3bets so much that Ax is ahead of his 3betting range. If you want to call in position to outplay post flop then choose hands that aren't likely to be dominated.