TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

So on the flop I was trying to get the LAG-TAG BB (30/22 and 45 ATSB) to raise and knock out the field. However that didn't work, and when the CO (who was a poster in this hand) raised I figured this was a good spot to jam and fold out the BB's likely overs.

reads on CO is that he is very very passive preflop (40/10 and I actually was able to put him on AA when he capped me pre from the SB and lose the minimum with KK) but tends to play decent post, but can't overcome the fact that he is usually playing worse cards and in worse position than his opponents.

should I just go for the c/r on the flop or is the donk ok to try and knock out the field? and if I do go for the c/r and it comes 2-back to me do I 3-ball?

The turn is great for me, but am I putting in too much action or is this just standard?

comments on all streets welcome.

Full Tilt Poker $8/$16 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

CO posts a blind of $4
CO posts a blind of $8

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, MP calls, CO checks, Button folds, Hero calls, <font color="#FF0000">BB raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP folds, <font color="#FF0000">CO raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, CO calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">CO raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (13.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

i like your reads

even though BB is lag-tag, i would still give a lot of respect to his PFR. on average, he is raising 4% more hands from the BB than we would be.

flop looks very good for the reasons you stated. i would usually 3-ball 2 more back to me, since CO's hand is mostly top pair or better, but more heavily weighted towards top pair than two-pair/sets because a lot of times he would wait until the turn to raise. turn would be tricky if you check 3-bet and BB was still in the hand.

given the flop action, turn and river are standard.

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

I would just go ahead and c/r the flop. My experience is that BB will rarely raise to "protect" your hand unless you are beat. *Edit* to say that if he does tell you that you're drawing by 3betting your check raise, you would rather have more players in because you need to improve to win and your outs are pretty clean.

As played, I'd be a bit worried about a set when CO raises the turn. Given that he posted, he should have a lot more worse 2pair hands, so no real reason to slow down yet.

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

I would play differently depending on players.

If MP and CO are predicable and not very aggressive, I would donkbet to hope my opponents fold or get some informations by low cost.
If MP and CO are very aggressive and unpredicable, I would just check to see what happens. Maybe c/r can pretect my hand more.

On the turn I would just call if CO is Passive but 3-bet if co is aggressive and especially like bluff or freeshowdown.

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

what kind of player is MP that limps pf before a poster? Since BB seems pretty tight I would raise pf and try to limit the field to the limper and the poster and me. Also if the poster has real crap even he could fold to a raise pf even if it's not very likely.

After I raise pf I just have to bet for value on every street...

As played I like the donk with TPTK and you played the rest of the hand perfect.

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

I raise pf because one of the guys is a poster and might fold.

I like the hand as played because the PFR is not guaranteed to c-bet on this flop into 3 opponents and if he does your nines dont look so good anymore. Checking around would obviously be awful.
After the poster raises go ahead and 3bet for value and to knock out BB, you are ahead a lot. If BB would raise i might be more careful.

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

I am with Gvasa about prflop. I raise it vs a limper and a poster an with a tight BB.

I donk the flop as well. But not for the reasons you did pizzle.

I really disagree whether we can expect BB to protect our hand when we have a hand to protect. In other words I agree with Trypta that BB will mostly raise when he has a better hand than ours, i.e. a pp larger than T's. So when he raises we really dont care whether we fold out the limpers overcards and other draws as we are only drawing to 5 outs ourselves.

That said I still donk to make sure that a bet goes in as BB might very well check his overcards.

After the donk you play it perfect IMO.

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am with Gvasa about prflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? Oink have you realized that you've agreed with me several times lately. And you've cut down on the "you're an idiot" posts to. Is this just variance or what?

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

Yeah, preflop is close, but I still just complete there. there is close to zero chance the CO poster will fold and you will end up in a 3-4 way pot with a minimal equity edge and poor position. That said, you DO have an edge so whatever, go ahead and push it.

As for the flop, I was thinking the donk may be useful for exactly the reason that BB may not c-bet. However, in my experience, LAGTAGs c-bet close to 100% of the time regardless of whether they should or not. I think it is very rare that this flop gets checked by him, and the times he does check, often another player will bet it anyway.

Re: TPTK on the flop from bad relative position.
 

the limper was actually somewhat tight passive, and I had seen him limp decent hands before KQ AT, so I didn't think I gained a whole lot by isolating OOP. I think you guys make some good points, so PF is probably close between a raise and a call.

If I had checked, and I know people are mixed about whether or not to check or donk, do I 3-bet if it comes two back to me from the CO?