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- - TPNK damn it !! (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=487253)

The hand is from the Stars Million $500+30

Any preflop, flop and turn advise would be appreciated:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t9125)
UTG (t10250)
UTG+1 (t13975)
MP1 (t11575)
MP2 (t12253)
MP3 (t16997)
CO (t13275)
Button (t12650)
Hero (t6875)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls t300, MP2 calls t300, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t1200) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets t900, Hero calls t900, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (t3000) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t2100, Hero raises to t5675, MP2 calls t3575.

River: (t14350) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t14350
Main Pot: t14350 (t14350), between MP2 and Hero. > Pot won by MP2 (t14350).

Results in white below: 
Hero has 4h Qh (one pair, queens).
MP2 has Td Qd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: MP2 wins t14350. 

My Analysis:

Preflop : Completing the SB was fine with 2 callers

Flop : This is the first puzzle, Do you check-fold any time you flop TPNK on a multiway pot?, if MP1 or MP2 bet, I most probably fold, but since the bet came from the last person to act, my hand may be good, therefore the call; Is a check-raise better? Is leading better?, because of the size of my stack, Is it the check-raise all in better if I'm not folding?, IS the call better and then shove any turn? shove the turn just if a club? just if a non-club?

Turn : I think it was a total mistake, if I'm going all in, it's better to just lead all in, instead of check raising without any fold equity. He'd probably called anyway.

Meh, I should just fold the flop all the time until I learn how to play TPNK.

Re: TPNK damn it !!

I generally lead the flop and fold to minimal resistance. Your hand just doesn't have enough value to plan to stack off 23x BB without a read of weakness. Unless I improve (including as little as possibly picking up a gut shot), I check the turn planning to fold to a normal 3/4ish bet.

I would only play the way you played it if mp2 is crazy aggro.

Re: TPNK damn it !!

I'd lead the flop as played but I'd probably fold pre. Alternatively, depending on how these guys play their limps to a raise, you can go and go or just shove. I think completing is about the worst option there. The fact there are two callers is somewhat irrelevant when you're rarely flopping big enough to win the hand OOP and probably not getting paid off when you do.

Go and go is kind of cool given the stacks.

Re: TPNK damn it !!

Zee, can you elaborate on the advantages of a flop lead?

Informational?
Preventing your opponent from bluffing near optimally?

Re: TPNK damn it !!

I usually do a flop lead to find out if my TPNK is good enough for me to be ahead. It's an information bet to find out where one is in the hand.

The other options are a check-raise or a check-call.

By betting out one forces the opponent to act and maybe make mistakes.

By just check-calling the flop one get about zero information about villans hand.

By check-raising one might commit a large chunk of ones stack with the worst hand.

Put the villians to the test and force them to make the hard decisions.

Sometimes one will win less if it happens that one really is ahead and the opponents fold to the bet - but its a safer way to find out when ones behind.

Re: TPNK damn it !!

[ QUOTE ]
I usually do a flop lead to find out if my TPNK is good enough for me to be ahead. It's an information bet to find out where one is in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what exactly is the information you get if called by someone with position?

Does this mean if you bet the flop and get called you're done with the hand and you're check-folding the turn?

Re: TPNK damn it !!

[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead the flop as played but I'd probably fold pre.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see a few problems leading this flop in particular, since there's both a flush draw and a straight draw (not too unlikely given deepish stacks and two limps) on the board vs three other players. If you get called, opponents' range is still wiiiide open, and at the same time there's a whole bunch of turn scare cards/you still have no idea where you're at.

I like leading flops that are a bit drier, I'm not entirely sure it's the best option here though. For that reason I agree that folding PF is probably best, I complete way too much in these situations myself [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

If we do lead, I like a 3/4 bet.

Re: TPNK damn it !!

Yes, it's problematic. However, leading from the blinds you're not often getting raised on this flop and we can discount AQ somewhat because of pf. A lot of the time, you just take this down and there's not much joy trying to milk TPNK over multiple streets OOP.

So

a) we take the pot down when we have the best hand which is going to be a lot of the time.

b) we get to the turn cheaper (by 100 chips) when we're up against a better hand

c) sets and two pair will generally raise us out

It's not ideal but better than check-calling IMO, especially when our best out is so messy on this board.

Re: TPNK damn it !!

Yeah I agree that it's definitely better than check-calling, I was thinking more of check-folding if anything.

Re: TPNK damn it !!

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I agree that it's definitely better than check-calling, I was thinking more of check-folding if anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're check-folding tp here, then we've never got the odds to complete, particularly with this few chips behind.