Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

Only thing I've noticed about Villain is that when he's headsup and both players have bettable boards but he happens not to have a big hand, he'll give up the initiative, even if his board is a little scarier (he and i just had pair + low draw v pair+ low draw just checked through on fifth and sixth). It doesn't exactly apply to this hand b/c i brick 4th and 5th; he's never not betting, but it does affect my third street decision a little b/c I might get a helpful free card somewhere.

Anyway, point of this post is to think about defending with a marginal hand against an obvious stealing ace. I feel like I shouldn't fold - Having a 2 in the door helps on some fourth/fifth scenarios and I have some hand strength, 7s obviously live. I thought about reraising third, but he'll put me on a good low so it sucks if I catch a brick, especially if he doesn't. Initial plan was to bet/raise 4th if I caught low. Called 4th intending to do the same on 5th as long as it looked like he didn't help (esp. good on a low club), figuring the best way to take it if he has nothing is to represent a strong semi-bluff on fifth, and if he doesn't fold I can probably get sixth free if I want it.

I'm guessing a lot of people will say to fold third or fourth, especially fourth. I feel like that's giving up too easily, but maybe it can't be helped against an ace (and w/ a 5% ante maybe defending isn't worth it).



7 Card Stud High-Low ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

Total pot: (2.30 BB)

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

Why in the world would you consider going forward here. There is no equity in doing so, as all other players folded.

He is not in the steal position, so you have to give him some credit for a good hand. Bad play in my opinion. Even if you cards are live, so are his it seems.

Good thing this is only 10/20. I have seen players at higher limits play with these hands, but there were more players in the pot and it makes more sense at high limits to do this as the ante and bring-in are so high.

Why play for half the pot.. you wasted a few bets hoping to catch. Tighen up a bit, maybe.

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

Villian was in the steal position, last to act before the bringin.

I probably would have called third as well, though not sure it is correct. I would fold 4th.

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good thing this is only 10/20. I have seen players at higher limits play with these hands, but there were more players in the pot and it makes more sense at high limits to do this as the ante and bring-in are so high.

Why play for half the pot.. you wasted a few bets hoping to catch. Tighen up a bit, maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? 772 plays horribly multiway. In a full pot, you've got [censored] both ways. Folded to last to act, this is equivalent to a hand in a headsup match w/ $3 antes. Headsup you've got something both ways and a good upcard. I can't imagine folding a pocket pair w/ a wheel card showing just because the other guy has an ace up. I was closer to reraising than folding.

I'm not playing for half the pot. This isn't about chasing; it's restealing with a little bit of backup. I'm mostly playing to win the whole pot without showdown when things develop badly for the guy whose downcard range is literally any 2 cards. Stud 8 isn't quite razz, where you can sometimes resteal just by catching better on fifth, but a lot can happen to make (69)A or (J7)A fold by fifth. A decent percentage of my equity comes just from having the 2 up + certain 4th-5th combinations. And for those times I end up at showdown, I have a little bit of hand value. For example, I'm scooping a significant percentage of the time I make two pair and get to showdown (b/c he rarely starts with a pair, and it'll usually look like I have a low)

As for third street equity, I'm fairly sure I'm ahead of a random ace, and I'm getting 3-1 immediate. That's not as important as how fourth and fifth develop, and there's definitely some reverse implied odds/being forced to fold incorrectly later more often than him, but it does matter some that I'm ahead of his range (for the times the boards are such that I can be aggressive, but he happens to have something).

I'm not trying to overly defend my play, I just want the discussion in the right ballpark. In steal/defend situations there's a fine line between junk and just-good-enough, and just-good-enough isn't supposed to be easy to play.

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just want the discussion in the right ballpark

[/ QUOTE ]

That is, assuming I do defend here, I'm more interested in what the plan should be in general - i.e. on different 4th-5th combinations - than on when I should fold in this hand specifically. And also on whether enough 4th-5th combinations are good for me that the hand can be played profitably. The crux of a steal/defend hand like this is board vs board on 4th and 5th.

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

I don't know if it's right or not, but I'm always defending this on third (possibly reraising) and I'm at least seeing fifth when I do and he bricks.

In fact, with that board, I might see a river, because with two random cards in the hole, his 6 is actually a good card for you, and now your 2 pair 'outs' are high enough to go somewhere. Again, I'm not sure whether that's right, but my gut tells me your equity is now much higher than it seems.

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

The ante is low here as well as the bring-in but you are getting 19:7 on your call. I ran these hands as your hand against Ah with 2 random cards and got you at about 55% EV on 3rd without regard to the other dead cards which do seem pretty inconsequential here.

I would lean toward raising his completion on 3rd and betting/raising 4th NMW except an ace for him of course. Your plan seems reasonable given his history but it runs into problems under just these circumstances where he gets to keep the mojo unless you hit something remotely scary.

You are obviously folding if he showed you an ace in the hole on 3rd or even another pair greater than 7's. Since you don't believe that is the case and think his most likely hand is a steal you need to take charge of this hand and get the best of the bet equity or at least see where you are.

Patty

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

The ante is low, so you don't give up all that much by folding third. I call, but you need to catch good in order to continue, in my opinion. I give it up on fourth.

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

[ QUOTE ]
The ante is low, so you don't give up all that much by folding third. I call, but you need to catch good in order to continue, in my opinion. I give it up on fourth.

[/ QUOTE ]

This cannot be right. I'm not sure how wrong it is, because I'm unfamiliar with exact stud8 equity, but it mathematically cannot be right to fold after bricking once, *especially* when the oher guy also bricks. If having 55% equity on third is correct, folding fourth is an atrocity.

It's also odd to me that stud is the one forum on 2+2 where someone can post 'well, you're getting 19:7 as a 55% favorite', the next post starts off 'you don't give up that much by folding', and no one bats an eye. I don't say this because I think I'm a better stud player than most people here - hell, I admit I suck at stud - but I do know something about poker as a whole, and that cannot be right/cannot be a good attitude to have as a forum.

Re: Marginal Bringin Defense - 10/20 Stud 8
 

Can some more people petition propokertools.com to add Stud 8? I've sent them a couple emails.

Being able to run (xx)AT v (77)2J would be so much nicer than the random sampling of downcards I'm doing now at twodimes. Generally, a tool to do hand range calcs for stud 8 would be the [censored].

Also, as my tone earlier in the thread indicates, I pretty much agree with adanthar (and similarly, my Stud game still has a long way to go). Stud 8 (and Omaha 8 to a certain extent) has a more serious reverse implied odds problem than other games, because it's so easy to pound pound in a headsup pot when your hand (or even just your board) is strong one way, especially when you have anything at all the other way. And clearly some of the equity you lose by folding getting 19:7 as a 55% favorite comes back when you put the same spot on someone else. But I really doubt expert play involves folding with that much of an overlay.