$3.30 HORSE two razz hands w/ King
 

Tournament.

I'm not sure if both of these are bad, good, one is and other isn't or what... (first is prob spew). Feel free to berate me.

My reasoning on first one: All low cards showing, I have two as well. Don't think too many more are showing up. 4th street is meh, fold? 5th he has no hand yet, mine isn't very good either. 6th he has nada. Check call river?

Two: Standard? I can't steal when all low cards folded right? Also ante/blind/bets getting really high I am short. Bet 4th?

1.

Tournament - HORSE - Razz - Level III (60/120), Ante 12, Bring-In 18 (converter)

Seat 1: 1,535
Seat 2: 2,431
Seat 3: 2,324
Hero: 2,483
Seat 5: 2,459
Seat 6: 2,666
Seat 7: 2,541
Seat 8: 2,216

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.80 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (7.80 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls

River - (13.80 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___calls

Total pot: (15.80 BB)


2.

Tournament - HORSE - Razz - Level VIII (270/540), Ante 54, Bring-In 81 (converter)

Seat 1: 8,067
Seat 2: 4,712
Seat 3: 467
Hero: 2,708
Seat 5: 10,166
Seat 6: 17,607
Seat 7: 5,360
Seat 8: 2,228

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (1.80 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (3.80 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (5.80 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (5.80 BB)

Re: $3.30 HORSE two razz hands w/ King
 

First hand is definite spew. The ace completed after a limper and into a lot of low cards, so there is almost no chance that he's stealing. Lots of low cards out means all the cards you need to improve (and you do need to improve, by a bunch) are dead. I also fold on 4th. On 7th, I just check/call - he's obviously drawing to a good hand, and with your board he knows you don't have better than a 9. If he hits, he raises and the pot is so huge you are almost forced to call.

Second hand is tougher, as there is a chance he is stealing here. I'm not very good at bring-in defense situations, but here I think you fold as well. He raised into 2 low cards, and I would need a lower upcard (maybe a J or better) for me to feel comfortable defending. The rest of the hand seems fine.

Re: $3.30 HORSE two razz hands w/ King
 

I don't defend in the second hand, and it's mostly because it's a stack size issue. There's no way you can make a hand before 6th street, and to just see 6th street, you may need to invest about 1000 chips, nearly 40% of your remaining stack.

The ante is only about 1/50 of your stack size. You have time to wait for a hand -- you don't need to be making a stand with a King door card.

Of course, once you've made the 3rd street call, I think the play is pretty standard.

Re: $3.30 HORSE two razz hands w/ King
 

The first hand is utterly insane. What are you thinking on sixth? Also, you should be less likely to defend when there are many low cards out, not more: you need to catch them. All your opponent needs is for you not to catch them. I like your river bet on this hand, though, because you're so obviously FOS earlier, he'll call you with anything.

The second hand is fine if you know the raiser is loose and willing to steal through two babies. I wouldn't do it against an unknown. I might checkraise the river.

Re: $3.30 HORSE two razz hands w/ King
 

[ QUOTE ]
The first hand is utterly insane. What are you thinking on sixth? Also, you should be less likely to defend when there are many low cards out, not more: you need to catch them.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm pretty bad at razz (obv). On 6th I have the best hand, kind of. Awful draw to nine high. I bet/3bet because there are few cards he can catch to win that don't counterfit him, and he could make a bad fold to 3bet. This is probably wrong.

Yes, in the second hand at this point everyone was stealing. I thought there was a very good chance he has ATC in hole acting that late with ante/betting so high relative to stacks. It was a gamble, at this point my chip count relative to avg was really, really low. Didn't think extra amount to complete bring in was relevent... ~2600 vs ~2300. I thought my hand has decent showdown value against a steal (on 3rd street), wrong?

Thanks for help.

Re: $3.30 HORSE two razz hands w/ King
 

[ QUOTE ]
On 6th I have the best hand, kind of. Awful draw to nine high. I bet/3bet because there are few cards he can catch to win that don't counterfit him, and he could make a bad fold to 3bet. This is probably wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm getting from this is that you don't realize that you paired your four. Your action does make a lot more sense that way. (And yeah, every once in a while I do this too. Did it this morning in fact.)

Re: $3.30 HORSE two razz hands w/ King
 

Generally speaking, you should post one hand in a thread unless you're using one hand to set up another or something. If there's a lot of discussion, it can be confusing as to which hand is being discussed.

As others have indicated, the first hand is awful. Third is a very easy fold. Fourth is a very easy fold. On fifth, I would check with the intention of folding to seat 5's bet. I'm not as sure about sixth and seventh, because there is some money in the pot by now, but you should never have gotten that far.

Second hand, I'd fold third. Perhaps he's on a steal, but he's trying to steal through two people who have cards in the play zone, which probably isn't a good idea in a $3 tournament. Fourth is a pretty easy bet. You both have three-card hands (presumably), and your three-card hand is better than his. You did well to fire the rest of the way.

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